S. African Lightning crash Update Aug '12

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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Flipflopman » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:18 pm

Obviously, as a Sootie, I'll not pretend to know the in's and out's of Armourer kit, but I'm pretty sure of the fact that there was an interlock between the Canopy/Seat due to the whopping strip of metal included in the middle of the Lightning canopy. Posts from Lightning pilots on other fora allude to the pilot notes suggesting that if the seat has not gone after pulling both the Seat Pan and Face Blind handles, then the canopy has to be manually jettisoned. As I say though, Pam and Dave will be able to give much more detail than I, although having lost a friend recently (Mike Harland in the Tornado last year) due to AAES problems, I have taken an interest in this subject myself.

As a Sootie with a long time interest in Lightnings though, it sadly seems quite clear what has happened, as Andy says, the classic Lightning back end fire. Having read through the thread on www.AvCom.co.za where most of these pictures have come from, I have had to stop myself from posting several times at the uninformed and ridiculous speculation that has taken place over there. Everything from Undercarriage fluid leaks on take off, to Tailplanes falling off! Add to that a good round of back slapping and suggestions from the posters that the SACAA should read their forum, and how their suggestions are "Invaluable evidence" and you can imagine my frustration!!

Thank heavens for good old British common decency! ;)

I, personally, await the official inquiry with interest


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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby 320psi » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:39 pm

Air wrote:What's the ejection sequence in a Lightning? I'd assume that big canopy has to be blown first on the two seater before the seat moves? Is it the same in a single seater, or would they go through the canopy?

Only one small thing to be grateful of regarding the crash is that they weren't carrying a passenger. I've heard a competition winner was due to fly in that aircraft in the afternoon. :(


Im getting involved again [-x


Right, when either seat pan or face blind handles are pulled, the sequence is thus:

A mechanical 'sear' cuts the canopy jack pivot bolt
An explosive bolt/pin is forced up (on the right hand side of the cockpit top edge) which lifts the canopy into the slip stream, and away.
The leg lines pull the occupants heels to the base of the seat, aiding exit and loss of legs below the knee
The seat is forced up a 30ft telescopic tube (to clear the vertical stabiliser) at 400ft per second
Below 10,000ft a barostat automaticlly separates the occupant from the seat and deploys the chute and PSP

Now if the canopy fails to go, there is a manual separation system, but this is down to 'occupant power' of the aided or hindered depending on G forces, by the slip stream.
Now the F6 canopy takes two people to lift, so if needed a single occupant could lift one off
But the T5 canopy is much bigger and heavier, whether a single occupant could lift it, I dont know

Yes your right, thats the only saving grace, there was no paying memeber of the public on board.

Still very sad though ;)
Last edited by 320psi on Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Saracenman » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:40 pm

320psi wrote:If the Mods think its ok I will upload the pics ? Let me know


all ok with admin and mods - go for it 320

links to pics rather than embedded pics please :)

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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby 320psi » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:47 pm

Saracenman wrote:
320psi wrote:If the Mods think its ok I will upload the pics ? Let me know


all ok with admin and mods - go for it 320

links to pics rather than embedded pics please :)

sm

These are some you have already seen by now I assume

This first one shows the 2 fuel leaks before brakes off :(

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/ ... age005.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/ ... age007.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/ ... age009.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a273/ ... ge009A.jpg

I feel really odd doing this, please let me know when you have have all seen them, I will then pull them off :(
Last edited by 320psi on Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Xplumberlives » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:51 pm

Thanks Andy, that seems to cover it all!
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Pujgnie » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:04 am

Beggars belief... :(

Thanks Andy.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby RLN » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:09 am

Thanks Andy. I really don't know what to say.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Saracenman » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:15 am

thanks 320 - not good - not good at all :(

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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Nickolas » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:18 am

Lesson to be learn't?

ALWAYS have a send off crew............just to make sure.

Not meant to be horrible but that's all that was needed, another pair of eyes.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Spitfire » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:23 am

Thanks Andy - So very sad :(

That bang seat not working is really getting to me.

Now its presumably a question of waiting for the official enquiry reports.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Mayfly » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:29 am

Its a very, very, very unusual occurrence for a seat not to work when it's with in its operating parameters. They will find out what stopped it operating. We need to wait for the official report.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Dougs » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:51 am

Andy, i get the feeling that you feel the loss VERY deeply however i have to add that you guys at bruntingthorpe are the best i have ever seen (getting the safety/fun ratio right)while keeping a very dangerous plane serviceable for us to see in action and i am greatfull that i have been privileged to see tham in action please please dont stop!!! what the LPG are doing IS right everyone who has seen a lightning in a museaum then seen one of your runs can tell you they were never ment to hang from the roof like sides of beef.
all the best, doug
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby 320psi » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:37 am

Thanks Dougs ;)
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Air » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:51 pm

Mayfly wrote:Its a very, very, very unusual occurrence for a seat not to work when it's with in its operating parameters. They will find out what stopped it operating.

Wont that depend on how much wreckage they've got left? I don't know the status of what was left of the aircraft, but if it's really badly burnt/disintegrated then we may never know the real reason for a seat failure.

Hope they can uncover the truth though, if only for the families sake.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Thumper » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:21 pm

That is a very sad set of images :(

Air, from what I have read on AvCom it appears the plane did disintegrate on impact with the field being set alight from the fire thus burning the wreckage. Again there are conflicting reports on whether the pilot went down with the plane or not. Several reports state he was found quite a distance away from the plane which indicates a) the seat may have worked in the final moments or b) he removed himself from the plane manually.

As a slight aside I also found this story on AvCom on a failed ejection sequence, it is a very interesting read and the most miraculous escape.

http://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55184
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Spitfire » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:25 pm

Air wrote:
Mayfly wrote:Its a very, very, very unusual occurrence for a seat not to work when it's with in its operating parameters. They will find out what stopped it operating.

Wont that depend on how much wreckage they've got left? I don't know the status of what was left of the aircraft, but if it's really badly burnt/disintegrated then we may never know the real reason for a seat failure.

Hope they can uncover the truth though, if only for the families sake.


When you think they spent 7 months scraping up all the bits of the Shuttle that came down over Texas when it disintegrated on re-entry - they then 'reassembled' it in a hangar and the cause was identified. I know there was also telemety but Its amazing what the experts can tell from wreckage.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Mackrick » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:30 pm

So sad to see Andy.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Stigish » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:52 pm

I almost feel bad for saying thanks for showing the pictures, but at least it builds a picture & eradicates some of the theories :(
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Air » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:33 pm

A preliminary report of the crash has been issued.
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/accidents%20&%20incid/reports/2009/ZU-BEX.pdf

An interesting read which confirms a few things we've discussed here.
Section 5.4 regarding the ejector seat servicing seems poignant in hindsight. :(
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Xplumberlives » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:45 pm

Thanks AIR, very interesting, it would appear that a pilot died because of shortcomings in the engineering/maintainance setup!
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby RLN » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:00 pm

Very sad :(
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Thumper » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:04 pm

A heartbreaking read :(
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Jigsaw » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:16 pm

'If only'....can be a deadly thing. My heart goes out to those that have lost.
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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby Saracenman » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:29 pm

very sad

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Re: S. African Lightning crash

Postby 320psi » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:32 pm

That makes very sad reading, not unexpected though, but its asks more questions than it answers for me

Its not quite right however,

quote

'From Photographs taken at the airshow of the aircraft, it appears that there was an inflight fire located in the engines. It is possible that this caused the Hydraulic failure'.

This is not what any of the shots Ive seen shows, the fire can be seen coming from the bottom of the No1 jet pipe,nowhere near either engine, a fire in the lower jet pipe bay would burn though all the hyd/fuel lines, control rods and elevator PFCU very quickly (the rods were all changed on the Lightning fleet in the 70's from alloy to stainless, to help prolong their life in the event of fire, which they were plauged with untill the end in 88)
But there also seems to be fuel leaking from the forward ventral area as well, all not good

Fire in the engine bay would and can be fought by the engine bay extingushers, there are none in the jet pipe bays.

I await the full report, as this one confuses me somewhat, as you can all imagine this tragic event has touched the Ligthning world (which is very small, maybe only 40 people world wide) deeply, we all feel it and its pushed many thoughts to the front of all of our minds, we the owners of 'just' ground bound Ligthnings feel very responsible for safety of all those people around the aircraft, including ourselves.

Ive said this before and its a serious line, 'theres Lightnings and then theres other aircraft'


Having seen this report one of our members, Roly Elliot, ex chief tech on Lightnings of 25 years, 18 of which were spent on the Lightning fire integrity programe, sent this to me:

Ref' the interim report. Seems like we're about to re-invent the wheel again. This is 1970 onwards all over again. They're about to wake up to the fact that these aircraft are not quite like other aircraft and nothing substitutes for experience. Having been a "Fire Integrity" specialist (along with Pete) on Lightnings for 18 years I'll be interested to see what they come up with. However it's the ejection seat failure that is the most pressing issue by far.

What I dont understand is at no time did Dave Stock call 'fire 1 or 2' or both, there are warning captions in the cockpit warning of engine and jet pipe fires when the fire wires burn though or are effected by heat, why wasnt he aware of the fire raging at the back end ?

This is also interestig but not unexpected

Quote

After he completing this short show, the pilot taxied the aircraft back into the direction of Apron B. He was still
on the runway when the engines of the aircraft suddenly flamed out. The pilot attempted
to restart the engines but was not successful. The aircraft was then towed back to Apron
B where it remained parked overnight. Back on the apron the Air Force Fire Fighters
noticed an excessive fuel leak and to stop possible damage to the apron, the fire fighters
put drip trays under the aircraft.

Ummmmm,when an engine flames out for what ever reason the fuel (if theres any left), is still being pumped in and will run straight out the back engine and into the jet pipe, the seal between the engine, pipe and reheat pipe are only a hot gas seals, not a fuel seals and there will be fuel everwhere, filling the bays, there are 'over board' fuel leak lines and drip trays to counter any fuel leaking onto hot areas, but this is not good and should be investigated, meaning a pipe pull


We shall see what comes from all this, still very sad though :(
Last edited by 320psi on Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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