4472 'Flying Scotsman'

[Mackrick]

Not ood news really but thanks for posting.

[34053]

It's been a while since I last posted any News on the progress with the ongoing Restoration/Overhaul (whichever you may wish to call this catalogue of 'problems'!). So here we go (and its not good News):

There has, in fact, been a 9 month silence on the part of the National Railway Museum. However, they have now revealed that the front 12 feet of the Locomotive Frames will have to be replaced. This is because, after the Cylinders were removed from the Frames, it was found that the bolt holes (over 50 of them per cylinder) had become severely 'elongated' (due to movement and 'flexing' of the Cylinders, in operation). Welding repairs were 'inadvisable', due to the close proximity of many of the holes.

Following the critical Report of March 2013 (previously referred to in an earlier Post) completion of the work on the Locomotive was removed from the NRM and put in the very capable hands of Riley & Sons (E) Ltd in Bury, Lancashire. The two new sections of the Frames (1.1/8'' thick steel) are expected to be delivered to Riley's 'in October'.

'Scotsman' was withdrawn from Main Line operation in the latter part of 2005, for an overhaul which the NRM said would begin 'in January 2006, take 20 months and cost £776,000'. To date, these costs are believed to have exceeded £3,000,000 (excluding the original cost of around £2,300,000, to buy the Locomotive).

A 'Steaming Date'? NRM are saying 'in 2015'. Don't hold your breath!

PW

[Dougs]

wow it would have been cheaper to build a new one "triggers Broom style"
why on earth they cant just put her on show only, and spend the money building a new one would be a much better option IMO she is not a young girl. too late now tho i suppose

[Spitfire]

"triggers Broom style"

Quite - 14 heads and 15 handles - when it's finally back will it actually BE Flying Scot or a new copy of the old one

[34053]

wow it would have been cheaper to build a new one "triggers Broom style"
why on earth they cant just put her on show only, and spend the money building a new one would be a much better option IMO she is not a young girl. too late now tho i suppose

A new one possibly could have been cheaper! Also, one of the options was to just have the Locomotive 'stuffed and mounted' for static display only. However, the decision was made to proceed with the completion of the Restoration/Overhaul, to the intended full, 'Main Line Running' specification - having already gone down that road to such an extent. The proviso being that all of the outstanding work be carried out by a specialist, outside Contractor (hence Riley & Sons' involvement)

PW

[10680]

My (tonguein cheek) suggestion at the Bluebell Railway is that you don't scrap any replaced parts. Eventually you have the original non-running engine in a museum, and a runner that is all new.

[34053]

It's been quite a while since I posted any News about this particular Locomotive, but it seems that it could be some 'good news', for a change:

It has been a 9 years and £3 million plus (!!) overhaul, but it appears that, at last, things are beginning to come together. The Boiler, Wheels and Cab being 'trial fitted' to the Frames, at Ian Riley's Bury Workshops and over 90% of the required components are now ready. The National Railway Museum at York is committed to steaming the Locomotive in 2015, so 'watch this space'!

PW

[34053]

Latest News:
Locomotive and tender have now been reunited at the Bury Workshops of Ian Riley for final assembly and painting. 'Scotsman' will emerge as No 60103 and restored to its BR lined Brunswick Green livery. 'Running In' is expected to take place on the East Lancashire Railway in December (assuming completion of this painfully protracted 'Overhaul' in November).

If all goes to plan (which, so far, has not been a feature of this Project) 60103 will be at Kings Cross in February 2016 for an inaugural 'comeback' to York. This will be after an 'Overhaul' which has taken 11+ years and more than £5million (originally expected to take 20 months and cost £775,000, when withdrawn in 2005).

PW

[Spitfire]

'Scotsman' will emerge as No 60103

Nnnoooooo .... she is 4472 ..... that's just plain wrong

She's not BR she is LNER and always will be in my mind

Yes I know - smoke deflectors - double chimneys and all that BR stuff ... but she is still LNER 4472

[34053]

Yes, I agree 100% with you, David. This is what you could call 'insult to injury'! Always will be 4472 as far as I am concerned (hence the title of this Topic).

All credit to Ian Riley's guys; since they took over this 'Restoration' from the NRM, things have progressed a lot better There has been no repeat of the '6 steps forward and 9 steps back' situations.

PW

[Spitfire]

All credit to Ian Riley's guys;

Well ok .... Fair enough ....But 60103 What are they all thinking

4 4 7 2

[Dougs]

to be fair the 4472 numbers and the twin chimney ans smoke diflectors are all at odds to each other as it would never have been like that in service. its a bit like sticking WW2 camo on a typhoon.......... oh hold on they done that too

funny thing with loco's and aircraft you have to really pick a point in time and say thats what i have got.
when i build my loco's i pick a date in time and say thats what its going to look like.

I personally like the "old" Flying scot without the diflectors and one chimney but hey least it looks right now.

[Spitfire]

to be fair the 4472 numbers and the twin chimney ans smoke diflectors are all at odds to each other as it would never have been like that in service. its a bit like sticking WW2 camo on a typhoon.......... oh hold on they done that too

funny thing with loco's and aircraft you have to really pick a point in time and say thats what i have got.
when i build my loco's i pick a date in time and say thats what its going to look like.

I personally like the "old" Flying scot without the diflectors and one chimney but hey least it looks right now.

As usual all very sage and logical comments Dougs - but, in this instance, if I might be so bold, you are wrong

Flying Scotsman IS - and always will be - synonomous with the number 4472 and LNER ... she just IS.

Do an experiment - type 'Flying Scotsman' into Google and search images ... now scroll down the hundreds and hundreds of images and find one where she's NOT 4472 and tell me that's not a testament to her number being 4472 in the public psyche and indeed in reality. I think I found maybe 3 in the hundreds and hundreds as I scrolled down and before I got bored looking - and 2 of those were models.

you have to really pick a point in time and say thats what i have got.

So all I'm saying is that someone faceless and unthinking - in their infinite wisdom - picked the wrong point in time by a very long chalk... for it was a not the best point in her long and illustrious career ... and I - for one - will be very disappointed and so sad to see here sporting the crappy BR number 60103 ...no matter what the logical (or illogical) reasoning ...

NO


YES

[Minty4371]

What about NE Black #502?

Photographed at York Railfest in 2012.

[Spitfire]

What about NE Black #502?

I refer my learned friend to a point I made earlier ...

Do an experiment - type 'Flying Scotsman' into Google and search images ... now scroll down the hundreds and hundreds of images and find one where she's NOT 4472 and tell me that's not a testament to her number being 4472 in the public psyche and indeed in reality.

One swallow doth not a summer make

4 4 7 2 - L N E R

[Dougs]

I am totally with you on nearly all points the whole flying Scott restoration has been up till recently a complete mess. I agree it should be liveried up in its older guise of 4472 but without the later additions of the double chimney and deflectors so it looks right. You wouldn't fit a 1980's roller with a carbon fibre rear wing if you were trying to make it look factory. So for me sadly if the smokebox and deflectors are staying then the liveries are correct. It may well get painted again quite soon anyway as it seems to be a way of keeping the photographers happy and keeping the loco fresh and popular.
Never fear she will get the proper paint again

[Spitfire]

if you were trying to make it look factory.

I see that point - but there is NO 'factory' look as such ... who cares if it has deflectors or a thrutch sprocket or a whim wham on a mustard mill ... just put the right number on it ....

Just like this.....



When it comes down to it who REALLY cares - sad nerdy anoraks who'll say 'it don't look right with them deflectors and double chimney' .... well they can just get a life

4 4 7 2 - L N E R

[Sooty655]

When it comes down to it who REALLY cares - sad nerdy anoraks who'll say 'it don't look right with them deflectors and double chimney' .... well they can just get a life

Unlike the sadder nerdier pakamacs who can't live with anything other than 4472.

[Spitfire]

As it says - everyone needs a pakamac ... especially when waiting to see .....

4 4 7 2 - L N E R

[Mayfly]

OK for a complete amateur who doesn't recognise significance of these things why change the number?

Livery I can understand if you are honouring or representing another Locomotive or era or is this part of what they are doing?

[Spitfire]

It appears that the nerds feel that with its BR smoke deflectors and double chimney it should be numbered as if it was in its Brirish Rail era...

It's sort of explained in the WIKI page ....

On 22 August 1928, there appeared an improved version of this Pacific type classified A3; older A1 locomotives were later rebuilt to conform. On 25 April 1945, A1-class locomotives not yet rebuilt were reclassified A10 to make way for newer Thompson and Peppercorn Pacifics. Flying Scotsman emerged from Doncaster works on 4 January 1947 as an A3, having received a boiler with the long "banjo" dome of the type it carries today. By this time it had been renumbered twice: under Edward Thompson's comprehensive renumbering scheme for the LNER, it became No. 502 in January 1946; but in May the same year, under an amendment to that plan, it become No. 103.[8] Following nationalisation of the railways on 1 January 1948, almost all of the LNER locomotive numbers were increased by 60000, and No. 103 duly became 60103 in December 1948.


"Flying Scotsman wearing its British Railways livery and numbering, equipped with double chimney and smoke deflectors"

Between 5 June 1950 and 4 July 1954, and between 26 December 1954 and 1 September 1957, under British Railways ownership, it was allocated to Leicester Central shed on the Great Central, running Nottingham Victoria to London Marylebone services via Leicester Central.

All A3 Pacifics were subsequently fitted with a double Kylchap chimney to improve performance and economy. This caused soft exhaust and smoke drift that tended to obscure the driver's forward vision; the remedy was found in the German-type smoke deflectors fitted from 1960, which somewhat changed the locomotives' appearance but solved the problem.

Oh - and bless my soul - look at the title of the WIKI page...

LNER Class A3 4472 Flying Scotsman

I was born in '52 and all my life I've known her as LNER 4472 in her green livery ....which - to me - and most other people it seems judging by my Google image search experiment - is synonomous with the name Flying Scotsman ...
Yes its been blue - its been black its had other numbers - but if you are spending several million squids rebuidling her then for gods sake rebirth her in a form the majority of people will know and love...

It seems to me they are doing this ... just because they can [/pakamac man]

[Vulcan Bomber]

OK for a complete amateur who doesn't recognise significance of these things why change the number?

Livery I can understand if you are honouring or representing another Locomotive or era or is this part of what they are doing?

In short, she was built as 4472 and that's how the purists like her. 60103 was her later number when the rail net works were nationalised instead of us having the big 4.

Personally I think this restoration is pointlessly expensive and on a much overrated engine and shouldn't of been required if her previous owner hadn't mucked about so much she was producing far more power than She was built to handle.

[34053]

'Scotsman' is nearing completion (at last) at Ian Riley's Workshop, in preparation for Test Runs at the East Lancashire Railway in January 2016. Use the following link to see the latest photos (December 2015):

http://www.nrm.org.uk/flyingscotsman/see/photos

PW

[34053]

After 10 years (and £4 million) 'Flying Scotsman' was in operation at the East Lancashire Railway today, in preparation for their ''Scotsman in Steam' Events on January 9th/10th and 16th/17th.

The Locomotive's Main Line 'debut' will be the 'Winter Cumbrian Mountain Express' on January 23rd:

http://www.railwaytouring.net/uk-day-tr ... s-23-01-16

Further Main Line appearances will be shown on the UKsteam.info website:

http://www.uksteam.info/tours/trs16.htm


PW

[Vulcan Bomber]

4 million quid and tye brakes dont work.yet!!