558 to Waddington 2nd July (WARNING - HAS BECOME ADULT!)

[Hungry Haggis]

yes it was a legal flight HH the permit didn't run out until midnight on the 2nd, I think the June was only a reference point in time & drafted before the permit was issued.

Thanks for that Mayfly .There was no implication in my post just a question in relation to the dates .I am aware that this would have been prepared/writen /agreed/part of the original agreements etc.
Back under my rock now .

[Mags]

Having just returned from Waddo - this is all making interesting reading. Very disappointed to say the least.

[Pujgnie]

I'll lob in my 2ps worth (for what it's worth.. )

The PtF issue has left us with a bit of a red face. It could have been easily avoided by moving the PtF dates to expire at end of season. (as suggested elsewhere)

By doing so.. we may lose a few months from a Valid one - but at least we can start next year knowing we are valid for the whole season. (A bit like car tax)

The name calling/back biting and mud-flinging on T'other Forum will not help anyone. A monumental lesson will 'hopefully' be learned from this for future reference

My financial backing of 558 stays put - despite this set back. OK - we are all deeply upset by the events of this weekend. Let's move on - and accept that VTTS won't get bitten on the bum by that one in the future. A lesson learned the hard way.

I feel sorry for paying public (who intentionally turned up for 558), VV team and Smiler and his gang - that Waddo was NOT as glorious as it might have been.

No doubt the next few days may be a bit worrying also... but I am hoping it will get sorted ASAP.

[Old Rigger]

I have decided to call it a day with the other forum, but like you Pujgnie and others my financial commitments, time and resources when offered and accepted will remain as well.

The reason why for me is not just to keep 558 in the air, I have seen it myself, worked on them and flown in one; I remain for all the hard working decent people like Taff and the aircrew past and present, the VV personnel and most off the others who work as volunteers for and in front of the public at shows and work behind the scenes, so to speak, to make this side of the club/whatever work.

Having seen the way the people on the VV worked at Waddington in what was a tense situation, the engineers who tried to make the most of what they had and those who also did the pre VV initiatives like the Lincoln market, some being one and the same guys and gals, these are the people I do not want to let down and I am only a small supporter in financial terms but feel what I give might make a small difference in keeping 558 where she belongs. If those peeps decide enough is enough, then and only then will I call it a day.

[Stevieboy]

An update:

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/anmviewer.asp?a=581&z=1

[Saracenman]

ok, MA's actual FAULT - but Andrew Edmondson should have been climbing all over MA MONTHS ago!

if he doesn't have that responsibility, then we are wasting money on employing an Engineering Director who lacks the authority to direct engineering?

sm

[Stevieboy]

I thought that he was doing the work all by himself.

[Nickolas]

I have decided to call it a day with the other forum, but like you Pujgnie and others my financial commitments, time and resources when offered and accepted will remain as well.

The reason why for me is not just to keep 558 in the air, I have seen it myself, worked on them and flown in one; I remain for all the hard working decent people like Taff and the aircrew past and present, the VV personnel and most off the others who work as volunteers for and in front of the public at shows and work behind the scenes, so to speak, to make this side of the club/whatever work.

Having seen the way the people on the VV worked at Waddington in what was a tense situation, the engineers who tried to make the most of what they had and those who also did the pre VV initiatives like the Lincoln market, some being one and the same guys and gals, these are the people I do not want to let down and I am only a small supporter in financial terms but feel what I give might make a small difference in keeping 558 where she belongs. If those peeps decide enough is enough, then and only then will I call it a day.

That really sums it all up beautifully.

[Wedgy]

An update:

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/anmviewer.asp?a=581&z=1

That doesn't help calming my anger .......

In any organisation, big or small, you NEVER EVER sit back while work is contracted out to other parties.
You set deadlines, you set conditions. IF the deadline is looming and and the situation looks dicey - you AT LEAST do the primal action of ..... COVERING YOUR ARSE and tell those who could be affected. In this case, if not the general public, the members at least.

The situation still wouldn't be good, but some of the anger because of "why didn't you bloody tell us!" could have been avoided.

Simple junior management!
(been there myself).

[Mackrick]

I have sat back and watched things unfold since last Thursday. I have refrained from posting so far (not been easy).

I am in a privileged position having been working alongside 558's groundcrew as an engineering wanabe since 558's arrival at Brize Norton. I have seen first hand the dedication and effort that everyone puts into sending 558 to display infront of the public. Everytime the aircraft fails to make an apperance the Groundcrew and Aircrew are devastated. Having been there myself the feeling in the pit of your stomach is quite startling.

Please remember that this is still the first complex aircraft in the UK that has been given a permit to fly and as such is a learning curve for all those involved. 558 is a complex aircraft and is reliant on many outside agencies to get and keep her in the air.

Everyone is doing their best to sort out the paperwork as fast as they can (with safety always being at the forefront) as the TVOC press release from 06 Jul 09 says. I don't do politics, but as an engineer I understand what is required from an engineering viewpoint only.

It is frustrating for everyone and I understand that. Trusted Information in the public domain can only come from the current press releases. It would be pointless posting a press release that only leaves people asking more questions than it does answer.

At this time I personally believe that everything is being done that can be done to rectify the problem. I know peoples feelings are running high but patience and understanding is required.

[Hungry Haggis]

Have to agree with the above fully also elsewhere in the thread I among others has maybe put the blame at TVST/TVOCs door rightly or wrongly ,I have this morning received a reply to my inquiry to Dr Bob.almost all of it is the press release posted on the TVOC news page apart from this bit

Just from the undernoted I read that they are just as p****d at what has happened as the rest of us
I hope that the above summary of what has been a dreadful time for all helps you understand that the root cause of the problem did not lie with the Vulcan to the Sky Trust. If anything, we could be guilty of being too trusting!

At least he was honest and they also admit there were failings which I would imagine they will do their best to ensure do not happen again .I still don't really understand the bureaucracy that allows such a situation to get that far or anyone to assume that something will be allowed or extended just because of a simple excuse "sorry we couldn't fit this important bit in just does not sound right". I have to say the openness now is getting better than it ever was BUT there is still large areas of improvement required in the pull your socks up department. OK I personally have found out what I needed to know and will drop off back to sleep now till the next time .

Once again I will publicly state my ongoing respect .for the engineering team and the hard work they do to keep XH558 flying .For all the shouting I think I can safely say to Smiler and his people we are all behind you but do get very frustrated at things at times .

[IanM]

I have sat back and watched things unfold since last Thursday. I have refrained from posting so far (not been easy).

I am in a privileged position having been working alongside 558's groundcrew as an engineering wanabe since 558's arrival at Brize Norton. I have seen first hand the dedication and effort that everyone puts into sending 558 to display infront of the public. Everytime the aircraft fails to make an apperance the Groundcrew and Aircrew are devastated. Having been there myself the feeling in the pit of your stomach is quite startling.

Please remember that this is still the first complex aircraft in the UK that has been given a permit to fly and as such is a learning curve for all those involved. 558 is a complex aircraft and is reliant on many outside agencies to get and keep her in the air.

Everyone is doing their best to sort out the paperwork as fast as they can (with safety always being at the forefront) as the TVOC press release from 06 Jul 09 says. I don't do politics, but as an engineer I understand what is required from an engineering viewpoint only.

It is frustrating for everyone and I understand that. Trusted Information in the public domain can only come from the current press releases. It would be pointless posting a press release that only leaves people asking more questions than it does answer.

At this time I personally believe that everything is being done that can be done to rectify the problem. I know peoples feelings are running high but patience and understanding is required.

Well said Mackrick

If VTST didn't know until Friday that the aircraft wouldn't fly and then tried to find solutions Friday night/Saturday morning it would have been pointless sending out a press release Friday night saying "we may or may not fly". That would have started people asking why. When they knew there was no chance of flying they made a statement to that effect, unfortunately it was at the worst possible time but I don't think there was anything they could do about it. As someone has already posted here or elsewhere, what would have been better, a statement Friday night saying she wouldn't fly so many people would stay at home and then get disappointed if she did, or wait until the last minute when they knew she definitely wouldn't be?

[Mayfly]

I too have been around the project [at close quarters] long enough to know how bad the air & ground crew feel when 558 doesn't fly & to that extent also the RP & AE.

However this time it's different she didn't go 'tech' & I'm not particuallry interested in whos fault it is - suffice to say it's an all time monumental cockup.

I believe one of the problems is, the managment style is more reactive than proactive which why we have these crises at the 11th hour

[Saracenman]

good to have your slant on things Mackrick!

i really hope that NO-ONE has any problem with either the air or groundcrew - most intelligent folk would know it's not THEIR fault!

it still shouldn't have happened! as Mayfly says - VTST's management style has ALWAYS been to leave things until the very last minute - we have seen plenty of situations where 'something' has clearly been brewing and yet, despite our best attempts to find out what, the 'something' finally erupts with bugger all time left to sort it out

funding and communications issues surely can't be blamed on Marshalls as well can they?

sorry, but when 'things' are going well, VTST and their management bathe in the glory - yet when things go wrong, it's apparently not their responsibility!

cake/eat it!

sm

[Pujgnie]

I still doff my hat to Smiler et Co... We have a serviceable Vulcan ready to take to the sky at next oppertunity

Well done the Engineers

[Saracenman]

i don't think that many of even 558's most ardent supporters realise just what the groundcrew do - the ridiculous hours, long periods away from home, putting up with Mackrick.........

what a bloody shame they don't have decent management to back them up!

sm

[Dangerousdave]

I do cos I know some of the ground crew personally and I know how little pay they get in relation to ours that they put in. To be honest, what they are paid would not pay my mortgage and they have my eternal respect.

Here we go...................................

Having said that, I still feel TVOC/VTS whatever the management want to call themselves (and I have a few things I could call them too ), should have they put something on their website saying there may be a problem on the Fri night then advised people to check Twitter for accurate updates, people could have decided for themselves whether to waste time going to a no-fly situation. Maybe some would have ditched Saturday's show and kept an eye on Twitter for Sunday's show. No official statement despite rumours on TVOC, and a certaim member of management swiftly departing Waddo and his duties, to leave volunteers to face the flack was not on.

Alienating the very people you need to keep a project going is NOT a good idea. I appreciate that the management want to keep somethings to themselves, but this is not a miltary nuclear bomber on a secret bombing raid, it is a civil aircraft at an airshow.

I also happen to know ( and got a bo****king on TVOC for mentioning) that some of us were aware on Friday evening that there was a problem.
Surely it would be better to let everyone know on Friday that Saturday was loooking iffy and if she was to fly o the Saturday it was a Brucie Bonus, rather than keeping it quiet and disapppointing lots of people.

People who know I support 558 were messaging me on Facebook giving me serious grief and calling the management all sorts of nasty things saying that the public should have been informed and then they could have made a decsion.

The aircrew were in a pub near Metheringham on Saturday night and were overheard talking and I dont think they were too jovial about it either. Maybe I should have had a go at them for a laugh

[Mayfly]

of course they were talking about it on saturday night they were as furious as everyone else, as I said before when it hit the fan it covered everyone associated with it, even those who do not have responsiblity for ensuring she gets her new permit & that includes the ground crew, air crew & volunteers.......

and DD even if you thought about having a go at them, even in fun, you are either braver or more stupid that I am...

[MadNaddy]

What will happen if we had an unhappy aircrew though?

Think about it...................

We have a person with the authority to deal with the upset public who disappears, leaving the ground and aircrews and the volunteers to deal with the rather irate public. The crew (ground and air) know what's going on, probably more so than the volunteers, and are understandably frustrated (putting it mildly).

Volunteers and air/ground crew do communicate too!

[Hungry Haggis]

What will happen if we had an unhappy aircrew though?

Think about it...................

We have a person with the authority to deal with the upset public who disappears, leaving the ground and aircrews and the volunteers to deal with the rather irate public. The crew (ground and air) know what's going on, probably more so than the volunteers, and are understandably frustrated (putting it mildly).

Volunteers and air/ground crew do communicate too!

Disapears ,I wonder if said person is already suspended in bomb bay ready for delivery on her next flight . .
I am staying asleep now but one last question why did Senior Managment not stand up and be counted at Waddington instead of leaving it to unpaid volenteers to take the hit .No further coment from here as i am so disgusted in said managment I could spit. I hope for this comming weekend the weather is kind to Smiler and his boys and the aircrew can do their stuff .Cockup rectification fixed of cource!!!!

[Mags]

No further updates on progress if any - anybody heard anything?

[Gully]

No further updates on progress if any - anybody heard anything?

Only what I read last night: MA's report (presumably the mitigation of the structural inspections of '603) has been commented upon by BAe Systems, who have requested a few amendments. This report (once amended) will be submitted to the CAA today.

Whether this is to secure a full permit renewal or a shorter-term extension of the now expired PtF, I've no idea!

Gully

[Mags]

Oooh ta! I missed that - not spending enough time reading all the info

[Dangerousdave]

No further updates on progress if any - anybody heard anything?

I wouldn't tell you if I did. Someone had a go at me last time!
However, I haven't!

[Mackrick]

This came up at 1840 on the RSS feed from TVOC site

Permit Update
08 July 2009 - Robert Pleming
The draft report has been delivered to BAE Systems, who have requested a number of minor alterations. The revised (final) report with a covering letter from BAE Systems should be with CAA tomorrow for their consideration.

Therefore, the chances of flying at Yeovilton are 'fair' - (not guaranteed but by no means out of the question either).

We will update just as soon as we are certain of the position.