Portrush & Cosby

[Hungry Haggis]

OH dear are we off again??
Why do people moan that an aircraft does not show at an event ,I'm not going to even look but I imagine each display date has the proviso of Weather &/or serviceability permitting Even the BBMF .I for one take this to mean they have to be fully cleared for faults before take of also the weather can be great at the departure field also the display site but in between could be very poor for many miles on either side of any planed flight path and also way to high and obscuring the ground ,PtoF rules again ,or one of the places IE take of /landing or display site covered in low cloud rain etc result no fly.This does not just apply to 558 either all display aircraft I expect are covered by this rule .I have also seen the same weather serviceable statement on 655s site .
OK people go to a lot of events just to see one particular aircraft do it's thing and most leave as soon as it has thats their privilege.BUT to state/imply that they have spent £XX and expect as if by right an aircraft to appear is a bit much.
As always the engineers have worked long and hard to put her right and give every chance weather permiting of not missing a disply.


In answer to the last post .I don't think they have that many routes worked out and anyway (please correct me if wrong here) they then have to get air trafic clearance to fit in with any other flights in an area .Also could they be sure that Doncaster would be clear weather for a landing or arrange a divert field if not .(I just know someone will correct me soon)

[Vulcan Bomber]

so why did a twiiter come up saying weather OK for take off? if they were ready to go, why didnt the Vulcan take off but instead they then messed around finding a alternate routes and taken them that long the weather then turned bad again.

Because at the time Coningsby might be clear of foul weather, the route to the displays may not, they cant go through it, or over it but around it. Which means they have less time to get to there holding points for displays. Speed at low altitude is not good for any aircraft, but something like the Vulcan is allot less up to the task.

You've got to remember she has to land somewhere as well and if Doncaster is rained in then she cant land there. Then you have to find the equipment to service her and fire her back up for the next flight, then you have to pay landing fee's and hope there's some were to park the aircraft in the mean time.

[Jigsaw]

I'm going to watch the first flight again on you tube, it always sends a shiver down my spine. The engineers, air crew the volunteers and a lot of people put in a hell of a lot of effort and enthusiasm that is hard to rival to allow XH558 to be where she is now and proved it once more over the past few weeks.
Pam has made the most valid point in her last post.

Edit: Just seen HH's and VB's responses. Also valid points.

[RLN]

so why did a twiiter come up saying weather OK for take off? if they were ready to go, why didnt the Vulcan take off but instead they then messed around finding a alternate routes and taken them that long the weather then turned bad again.

Ah, social networking.......oh, dear. Why do you think I am not on Twitter or Farcebook? It would like believeing the Government that we have that nobody in the country voted for. Don't believe it 'til you see it.

[VulcanXH558]

Im not going any further with this, everyone is in titled to there opinion including me, with the amount of none aircraft enthusiasts I spoke too ( ie Families) who don't know the tech side of why the Vulcan didn't take off, they didn't seem happy and feel the same as I do, and I think because of this the Vulcan will struggle to get yet more money this winter as it's gone out on a massive LOW.
With the Weather being bad or not a let down is a let down, and to people who payed there hard earned cash at Cosby to see the Vulcan, knowing the weather was going to be good they won't be to quick in future to pay again!
As the normal general public see sun and blue skies and think why has it not turned up this time! And this is true as I heard a lot of people saying this.

[Xplumberlives]

Well at the end of the show they fired the 21 bangs that would have simulated the BLACK BUCK mission on the Falkland Islands!

[RLN]

Im not going any further with this, everyone is in titled to there opinion including me, with the amount of none aircraft enthusiasts I spoke too ( ie Families) who don't know the tech side of why the Vulcan didn't take off, they didn't seem happy and feel the same as I do, and I think because of this the Vulcan will struggle to get yet more money this winter as it's gone out on a massive LOW.
With the Weather being bad or not a let down is a let down, and to people who payed there hard earned cash at Cosby to see the Vulcan, knowing the weather was going to be good they won't be to quick in future to pay again!
As the normal general public see sun and blue skies and think why has it not turned up this time! And this is true as I heard a lot of people saying this.

Yes you have a right to your opinion....but you know better than Joe Public otherwise you wouldn't be a member of this forum. it is disappoining when there is no show - we've all been there. The public wants to see 558, but the amount it brings into the coffers doesn't matter whether she turns up or not. If people at airshows gave proportionally, she wouldn't be on a knife edge year after year.

[VulcanXH558]

All I can say is in relation too that image the Vulcan went out with a bang! NOT.

Ps like the image a good shot.

[Howslo]

I've had more than my fair share of Vulcan disappointments over the years, in fact at one point I really wondered if I was ever going to see a display. But it's just one of those things. Yes, it's disappointing, but I'm content in the knowledge no shows are no one's fault. The only one that really did pee me off was the second year she was at Waddington when the P to F hadn't been renewed, but that's in the past now.

Personally, I've only seen her once this year (maybe twice assuming the tiny speck trailing black smoke far, far in the distance was her whilst at the CWJ day!), and that was just a lucky gamble when she was on her way back to Waddington after displaying elsewhere - I reasoned that wherever she had been (can't remember now!) was South of Leicester, and Waddington was to the north, so there was a reasonable chance she would pass Leicester Airport. Turned out I was bang on!

But there you have it. There's always next year...

[Mags]

All I can say is in relation too that image the Vulcan went out with a bang! NOT.

Have you actually read all the posts in this thread?

With a name like VulcanXH558 - presumably you're a bit of a fan???? You're obviously and understandably very disappointed at not seeing her at Cosby - disappointment happens for all the reasons highlighted above. We can't control the weather and XH558's wings are tied behind her back by the rules - as said - not the Trust's rules, but the CAA's rules. Nowt that can be done about it.

Go to another airshow that she's booked for I've seen her fly four times this year and I live 350 miles from Doncaster. Got to make an effort. I'm going to Leuchars this weekend - she's booked, but it's weather/servicability dependant, and if she doesn't make it, yes I'll be disappointed but I won't moan about it - I'll just get on with doing stuff to help.

[Sploosher]

All I can say is in relation too that image the Vulcan went out with a bang! NOT.

Ps like the image a good shot.

[rant on soapbox mode on]
I think it is time that this little `discusion` comes to an end before things get too heated...........

As you say, you are entitled to your opinions, but the facts are from the CAA, she is not allowed to Take off or fly in the kind of weather that they had at the time At Conningsby, no matter what the weather is like at the venue she is going too.

This is a fact and is not really open to discusion, so I would not waste yours and other forum members time taking it any further.

If you are going to do nothing but winge about it, then may I advise you to go and do it on another forum where it would be more appreciated, I.E. UKar$e, as they lke to slag off the Vulcan there.

[/rant on soapbox mode on]

[Dan4th]

VulcanXH558:

I stuck up for you before, but I can't any
longer. You are a Big Baby who refuses
to accept the facts. It didn't go your way,
so you are angry.

TOUGH!

GROW UP!

Dan4th

[Mayfly]

Oh dear Vulcan XH558 it's obvious by your previous posts that you have no knowledge of what it takes to fly 558. Not that thats a problem but why not ask what the problem was instead of leaping over the cliff?

VFR = Visual Flight Rules = The aircrew HAVE to see where they are going, no night flying, no flying through cloud. Not only that they need clear visibility of something like 8km distant other wise she is grounded! End of - no excuses no breaking the rules. All but one of 558 pilots have a full time flying job, no way would they put their profession on the line nor should they be expected to.


I started to explain about planning but I'm not a novelist so gave up! Suffice to say...

Just think of some of the hazards of flying 558 without proper planning and take into account Hills, Masts, Airways, Notams [as aside a pilot was jailed a couple of years ago for infringing a NoTAM against the Reds], Matz, Weather. Far from messing about the aircrew would have been desperately trying to find a way around the weather front, they are not allowed to fly below 1000' [other than landing/take off or on display] or above 15,000'. With a cloud base of about 200' and less at times and possible ceiling of 30,000' you tell me how they were supposed to get to Crosby legally? Perfectly possible for it to be sunny at both ends but like a brick wall in the middle.

Happened to 558/Duxford in '08 when a weather front did exactly the same to her!

[Nickolas]

Pam Lock this please before I say something I'm seriously going to regret.

[Sooty655]

Pam Lock this please before I say something I'm seriously going to regret.

Nick, don't forget that we take some pride in the fact that IA allows dissenting opinions, unlike some other fora. It is why a lot of our members like us so much.

(That said, my finger has been hovering over the LOCK button for some time)

[Jackslad]

I went to Coningsby and the weather was bloody awful, low cloud heavy rain, a bit of blue sky for a few minutes and I was there from noon until 3.20pm. There was no way 558 could get away and the right decision was made. CAA rules cannot be broken, end of story.

Displays missed have been down to weather, some at base and some at display. 558 has lost other displays due to two faults during the season. Rather less faults than my car, 5 years old not 51 and with 37000 on the clock.

Vulcan xh558 get over it or at least look at the full circumstances before making ill informed comment. If you're a true supported you'd understand. If you're not well enough said.

[Xplumberlives]

Please don't lock it!

[Mayfly]

I see no reason to lock it. If differing views causing the pulling out of hair were a reason to lock any thread, then I would have locked most on here by now!!

As with any thread if it causes concern, then the Mods will have a discussion about what action, if any, to take.

[Jigsaw]

Oh dear Vulcan XH558 it's obvious by your previous posts that you have no knowledge of what it takes to fly 558. Not that thats a problem but why not ask what the problem was instead of leaping over the cliff?

VFR = Visual Flight Rules = The aircrew HAVE to see where they are going, no night flying, no flying through cloud. Not only that they need clear visibility of something like 8km distant other wise she is grounded! End of - no excuses no breaking the rules. All but one of 558 pilots have a full time flying job, no way would they put their profession on the line nor should they be expected to.


I started to explain about planning but I'm not a novelist so gave up! Suffice to say...

Just think of some of the hazards of flying 558 without proper planning and take into account Hills, Masts, Airways, Notams [as aside a pilot was jailed a couple of years ago for infringing a NoTAM against the Reds], Matz, Weather. Far from messing about the aircrew would have been desperately trying to find a way around the weather front, they are not allowed to fly below 1000' [other than landing/take off or on display] or above 15,000'. With a cloud base of about 200' and less at times and possible ceiling of 30,000' you tell me how they were supposed to get to Crosby legally? Perfectly possible for it to be sunny at both ends but like a brick wall in the middle.

Happened to 558/Duxford in '08 when a weather front did exactly the same to her!

And just what makes you such an expert? Anyone would think you knew someone experienced in flying a Vulcan

[Xplumberlives]

That proves the maxim that "it's NOT what you know, but WHO you know"!

[Crew chief]

If the Vulcan had not turned up for say the permit to fly having expired then yes rant away but due to the weather or a technical issue its not worth the effort really is it.


cc.

[Kermit]

Spot on, Crew Chief.

[Lucas1860]

Healthy debate never hurt a sole. anyway if you were uneducated before, you certainly ain't now.

Jim.

[Hungry Haggis]

Leaf the poor guy alone now .Time to stop ribbing him now me fink If he ain't got the message by now I fink Mayfly will need to badger DT into posting one of his most excellent explanations ,anyone got a spare month to read that through .Or don't he know that Mayfly is the keeper of the Vulcan pilot.Everyone makes mistakes .I for one have learned a lot about the Vulcan in the past few years.Apart from the engineers who work dam hard to keep her flying the pilots all do dam good job in their spare time from their day jobs showing her to the public .Weather etc permitting .I really don't see any point in slagging TVOC off for something totally out of their control .
Heres where I bow out of this debate as it has now been done to death.

[Gully]

many of us are getting wise to the fact that she fails to display more often than actually getting out over the public!

Think someone needs a maths lesson! With the exception of 2008 when the gremlins were being shaken out, '558's appearance rate has been significantly better than 50 / 50. Even this year with all the problems she's had late season it's still 13/8 on.

Gully