The one that almost was...

[Saracenman]

and without it, where would Concorde have been built?

sm

[Dan4th]

The thing that killed the Brabazon was simply a
lack of vision. Same over here with the huge
Lockheed Constitution (twin-decker) and some
others.

Problem was in those days that air travel was
viewed as being for the upper classes, and these
BIG aircraft had absurd elbow room and amenities
for the passengers. Conventional seating as we
know it today would have made the Brabazon a
VERY profitable entity on Trans-Atlantic routes.

So what if it was s-l-o-w????? Carry a few hundred
arses in seats at half the usual fare, and the
Middle Classes would be lined-up around the BLOCK
to book passage!

Simply a case of the airlines not "getting" it. Nothing
new there, eh?

Dan4th

[Saracenman]

I'm not so sure that it was 100% due to a lack of vision Danf; after all, the Brabazon Committee did decide to build it in the first place - it was afterwards that they clearly got cold feet

also, the Brabazon Report did state a need for the 'Type IV' aircraft as well, which ultimately became the DH Comet, flying paying pax only a handful of years later.

i think, in this instance, the decision not to manufacture the Brabazon was a wise move - look how quickly it would've been made obsolete by the Comet, and later the 707 and DC8. the same could be said for the Connie - it was the pinnacle of its technological class, by was always going to loose out to the faster and more economical jets

shame though, because the Brabazon was a real beast!

sm

[Mayfly]

was her take off speed really as slow as it looked? & she also appeared to be under powered - but the one thing that stood out in the narration to me was it only took 6 years from drawing board to production, - why oh why does it take 20 years or more now, with all our modern technology surely we should be able to at least equal that amount time!!!!!

[Wedgy]

Another sad video from SM
Another aircraft way ahead of her time

Although ... nice new runway

[Saracenman]

was her take off speed really as slow as it looked? & she also appeared to be under powered .........

it looks like it doesn't it - especially as she had eight engines and contra-rotating props - would've expected a little more oomph

however, one comment that the narrator made was that, once she was airborne, the cruising speed was expected to be 100mph faster - so i assume that she took off at way below 100% power - and it was a very 'flat' takeoff too. i wonder of that footage was actually from a minimum unstick speed test?

scary to think though that Brabazon was the size of a 747, yet still only designed to carry 100 pax!

how times have changed!

sm

[Dan4th]

Exactly my point, SM......

Brabazon could have easily carried 300 or more PAX
in comfort. The airlines must have had a real problem
wrapping their minds around a number like that....

For certain routes, though, like London or Paris to NYC
or Washington, the extra time to get there fades in
importance when you consider how cheap the seats might
have been! Same for something quick and easy like London
to Gay Paree!

Leave the faster and more lux planes to the idle rich! The
Brabazon could have made air travel much more affordable
way back when! Also, don't forget the cargo potential!

I'm sticking with the "lack of vision" thing....

Oh, and here's one of our Gargantuans, the Lockheed Constitution:






I still say that Brabazon and Constitution could have changed the
whole nature of air travel by lowering fares substantially for the
average bloke or blokette!

Airlines weren't buying into that concept, though.....

Dan4th

[Saracenman]

YooToob linky not working Danf

still not convinced by the "lack of vision" - whilst the Brabazon Committee did realise the need to identify the future role of flight in global transportation, they were more concerned with how to deal with our 'Empire routes' than trans-pond

i think if you stopped the average bloke in the street in 1945 and suggested that he and thousands like him would, within two years, be flying off somewhere on holiday - he'd look at you as if you'd just landed from Mars! holidaying was all done in the UK, and only rich people went abroad - even then, crossing the Atlantic was the preserve of liners. that's the way it always had been, why should things change?

so, a large LUXURIOUS aircraft made more sense than a large PEASANT-class one!

sm

[Dan4th]

FIXED!

BTW: Wasn't talking about Mr and Mrs Bedsitter, I was
refering to ye Middle Classes for whom air travel was
just out of reach! Go on holiday and visit that nice
young Murkin chap or chapette you got to know during
the war OR go visit Daughter and Grandchildren in New
Jersey and that Murkin Lout she married OR have them
all hop over to visit YOU! Eight-plus days on a liner?
There goes most of your vacation right there!

When I and my family came to UK in 1958, it was QE-1
over in 2nd class (eight days) and TWA Lockheed
Starliner back as part of a package-deal. We were away
for a total of 23 days of which more than a third was
spent on the water -- although it was very nice....

My Dad calculated that the airfare portion of the cost
was MORE than the whole eight days on the Queen Liz!

When our Taunton friends came to visit us a few years
later, they had spent over a year saving-up just for the
airfare -- and these were not poor people! Gar was a
banker and Lucille owned and ran a delivery service.

Freddie Laker! HE'S the one who had the Vision Thing!

Dan4th

[Saracenman]

absolutely - the Laker Skytrain! in many ways like Sir Clive Sinclair and his C5 - had they both just kept a lid on their plans for another 15 years.............

i know I've disagreed with you on the 'lack of vision' Danf, but over all i think you have it spot on - rather than lack of vision (aka the inability to look into a crystal ball!) they figured out the horse with the best form, set the money aside, but just never put their bet on!

the whole point of the Brabazon was as a trans-pond airliner (despite the focus on the other types detailed in the otherwise forward-thinking Report) - perhaps instead of not identifying an EXISTING market, they could have gone a long way to CREATING one with their enormous machine!

the Committee were certainly brave, but clearly not brave enough

sm

edit - nice clip of the Constitution Danf

was that another of KJ's designs?

[Dan4th]

SM:

Well, just about anything you could name from
those days had Kelly Johnson's fingerprints on it!
Of course, they only ever built TWO of 'em.....

Figure-eight Fuselage Cross-section! Elegant solution
to the strength/pressurization challenge!

I'm still waiting for someone to do a documentary on
the man. He wasn't much to look at and hated being
interviewed or having to speak in public, but by all
indications KJ possessed a unique ability to "see" the
things that others couldn't!

D.

[Saracenman]

whilst reading up on things, i came across this beastie which I'd never even heard of before...



the Convair XC-99 - based upon the B-36, and only one ever built. it did 'serve' with distinction though, even as a prototype, it flew twice weekly cargo trips for the Korean War and became the highest hours 'X-plane' ever!

after years outside in various locations, it was recently rescued to go on display at the National Museum of the United States Air Force

fascinating a/c though

sm

[Pujgnie]

That is a worryingly slow take off - as was the Farnborough one (later on in the clip) !!

(And theres me thinking the Airbus was slow at Farnborough last year )

[Dan4th]

Phill:

I think that has to do with the fact that GIANT
THINGS in the AIR just seem to HANG there!

Where I live, C-5 cargo aircraft come to do touch
and goes once in a while. There are Antonovs from
time-to-time as well. They just LAZE across the sky
and you wonder what it is that keeps them UP in the
AIR!!!!!!

It's got to be a "scale" thing for aircraft that Huge....

Danf.

[Pujgnie]

Phill:

I think that has to do with the fact that GIANT
THINGS in the AIR just seem to HANG there!

Where I live, C-5 cargo aircraft come to do touch
and goes once in a while. There are Antonovs from
time-to-time as well. They just LAZE across the sky
and you wonder what it is that keeps them UP in the
AIR!!!!!!

It's got to be a "scale" thing for aircraft that Huge....

Danf.

Hang and Laze ? ......... you forgot 'lumber' into the air

For fear of being off topic, but this is also scary and slightly worrying

[Dan4th]

Phill:

Yeah, but you have to Wonder what was going
on in that Cockpit!

Ivan?

Yes, Yuri?

Vill Vee MAKE IT?

Maybe! Vee'll See, NO?

Vee'll see, YES!

Kommink......Kommink......Kommink.....

UP! UP! UP! UP! UP! UP! UP! PLEEEZE!!!!! UP!!!!!!!!!

THERE! You SEE? UP VEE GO!!!!!!!!!

Yuri? Yuri? Yuri? VAKE UP!!!!!!!! Vee are HAIRBORN!!!!!!!!!

NOW! Vere vuz it vee vere goink again????????????

SAN FRAN CEEEESKO!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOKAY!

D.

[Xplumberlives]

Good thread with some above average points made, the Brabazons biggest problem - poor engines, if only the whole concept had come along ten years later!