S. African Lightning crash Update Aug '12

[320psi]

Thats correct mate, fire seemed to engulf the lower rear of the No1 nozzle area right up to the leading edge of the tail plane on the shot Ive just seen thats been sent to us via a spectator who was underneath the aircraft and posted it to us via face book, I wont post it, it doesnt seem right

Back in the day the RAF's remit (speciality) was preventing this sort of thing happening, whether by inspection, enforcing adherance to procedures, education or any other means. (remember 100 hrs engineerig to 1 hrs flight was the usual number quoted)
The fire that appears to be burning the back end off would most likely have burnt through the tailplane input control/cross drive rod.
Its cause could have been many different things, from leaking FRS fuel couplings (in other shots Ive seen, as 451 took off and during the display there seems to be a fine white mist venting from that area, and thats no correct, there should be no fuel venting there at all) to a hydraulic system bonded seal on the pressure side giving up. The temperature in the reheat bays gets up to 238 deg C when the reheats are in use for long periods so any leak is potentially disastrous (and there is no fire extinguisher capability in that zone)

The RAF spent years trying to sort our fuel/hyd fires, only after 1972 when the fire intregarty mods were incorporated and constantly adhered to did the losses drop off, but the last Lightning to be lost in RAF service, XR769 was to fuel fire in March 1988, only 2 months before the end of operations at Binbrook.

Lightnings were and are still very much on the edge

Its the seat/canopy mechs not working that suprise me, Ive never of this before.

Very tragic

[Nickolas]

Just had a set of images sent to me that show the fluid leak whist on the ground.
So the lightening took off with the problem.

As my mate said.... A runway caravan would probably prevented the situation developing into a disaster.

Will only post images if requested and I can lift them off the email.

[Xplumberlives]

Please PM the images to me Nick!

[Nickolas]

Please PM the images to me Nick!

Email me and i'll forward..........

[320psi]

Yeh they are the same images Ive been pouring over since Saturday, looks like 451 was leaking fuel from two places even before 'brakes off'

Its a crying shame no one 'in the know' was near by as a 'see off' as per SOP in the RAF days, she wouldnt have been allowed to carry on.
Fuel leaks in this area is a no no

I await the offical report however

If the Mods think its ok I will upload the pics ?

Let me know

[Nickolas]

Yeh they are the same images Ive been pouring over since Saturday, looks like 451 was leaking fuel from two places even before 'brakes off'

Its a crying shame no one 'in the know' was near by as a 'see off' as per SOP in the RAF days, she wouldnt have been allowed to carry on.
Fuel leaks in this area is a no no

I await the offical report however

If the Mods think its ok I will upload the pics ?

Let me know

This makes it all the more tragic.....What a complete waste of life.

[Saracenman]

If the Mods think its ok I will upload the pics ?

i have no problem with you posting links to the pics 320

I'll PM this to Wedgy and the other mods too - if anyone has a problem with pic links, please say so!

sm

[RLN]

I think links are ok, then we have a choice to look or not.

[Cluny]

I agree with RLN .

[Iggie]

Agree with RLN, links allow the choice to look or not.

I really hope that this was not all down to the lack of a proper 'see off' as Andy describes it

[320psi]

If the Mods think its ok I will upload the pics ?

i have no problem with you posting links to the pics 320

I'll PM this to Wedgy and the other mods too - if anyone has a problem with pic links, please say so!

sm

Let me know

[Nickolas]

Agree with RLN, links allow the choice to look or not.

I really hope that this was not all down to the lack of a proper 'see off' as Andy describes it

IMHO that's the bottom line.

No one saw her off.

The images are not in any way 'gruesome'

I'd be happy to view them (well I have).

[Thumper]

This really is terrible I did see an image earlier this week which showed the aircrafts bottom engine alight with some flames flickering out from near the tail fins. The image was taken when the aircraft was doing a flypast which is quite horrifying as the fire had clearly already taken a hold whilst the pilot was still displaying which could also have led to a question over the warning systems not working soon enough.

Obviously I know nothing on the subject, just speculating over what I have seen and read from people in attendance at the show.

Link to the image of the tail of the plane alight, I apologise in advance if anyone finds this in bad taste, please remove if it offends.


WARNING - LINK TO PIC OF ILL-FATED LIGHTNING (edited by sm)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2557/4106229537_ccd24d403d_o.jpg

[Mayfly]

It's agreed by the Mods that links are fine.

[Thumper]

Thanks Mayfly, just didn't want it to come across that I am a disaster vulcher.

[Mayfly]

No worries, its a delicate subject,

[Air]

This really is terrible I did see an image earlier this week which showed the aircrafts bottom engine alight with some flames flickering out from near the tail fins. The image was taken when the aircraft was doing a flypast which is quite horrifying as the fire had clearly already taken a hold whilst the pilot was still displaying which could also have led to a question over the warning systems not working soon enough.

Obviously I know nothing on the subject, just speculating over what I have seen and read from people in attendance at the show.

Link to the image of the tail of the plane alight, I apologise in advance if anyone finds this in bad taste, please remove if it offends.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2557/4106229537_ccd24d403d_o.jpg

Blimey!
Is that picture for real and untampered with?
It just doesn't look right, although I guess the temps in there really are red hot.

With regard to fuel leaks, would that not normally be spotted on a pre flight walkaround?

[320psi]

This really is terrible I did see an image earlier this week which showed the aircrafts bottom engine alight with some flames flickering out from near the tail fins. The image was taken when the aircraft was doing a flypast which is quite horrifying as the fire had clearly already taken a hold whilst the pilot was still displaying which could also have led to a question over the warning systems not working soon enough.

Obviously I know nothing on the subject, just speculating over what I have seen and read from people in attendance at the show.

Link to the image of the tail of the plane alight, I apologise in advance if anyone finds this in bad taste, please remove if it offends.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2557/4106229537_ccd24d403d_o.jpg

Blimey!
Is that picture for real and untampered with?
It just doesn't look right, although I guess the temps in there really are red hot.

With regard to fuel leaks, would that not normally be spotted on a pre flight walkaround?

Yeh its real, thats a Lightning fuel or hyd oil fed fire, or both

All the important high pressure stuff is very very close to the pipes in that back end, just one seal going and thats it.

The pipe top JPT at full power is 795 degrees C, the internal airframe temps are up around 238 degrees C, with hyd and fuel lines sat at high pressure, Lightnings were well known for fire.
And with no fire protection in the rear bays, if theres a fire and your warnings are telling you so, then..........

Yes fuel leaks should be seen prior to start up, lightnings always leak, but they have to leak in the right places.

I my opion there should have been someone in a see off caravan prior to turning on the the thresh hold to give 451 the once over, but it looks like there wasnt, Dave wouldnt have known there was a leak and might not have known there was a fire, just his controls stiffning up, he did call 'control failure'

I always say this 'theres aircraft and then theres Lightnings'

Very very unpredictable.

Its really eating us up in the Lightning world belive me

[Mayfly]

I can understand that Andy with so few of them left, the world gets a little smaller & is bound to be felt deeply by everyone involved.

I hope the SA authorities can find the cause quickly to stop any more speculation, some of the things I have read on other fora does not make good reading.

My thoughts go out to his family.

[320psi]

I can understand that Andy with so few of them left, the world gets a little smaller & is bound to be felt deeply by everyone involved.

I hope the SA authorities can find the cause quickly to stop any more speculation, some of the things I have read on other fora does not make good reading.

My thoughts go out to his family.

Thanks Mayfly,

I hope Im not seen as speculating, Im giving my 21 years of Lightning running/engineering experience

I feel odd just typing anything on this subject to be honest and think is time I stopped, untill the offical report is out I cant say anymore

Yes the Lightning world very small, across the groups in the UK, Safrica and the US we all know each other very well, I would guess at maybe only 30 people are involed at the 'sharp end' so we all feel very down about this.

Even old positive me, is asking himself, 'what are we doing'

Im not alone

RIP Dave, fly high chap

[Mayfly]

No you are not seen like that at all, and I didn't mean for one second that anyone has made any speculation on here, asking pertinent questions & giving knowledgeable answers is a far cry from casting doubt on the professionalism of those involved as other fora has done.



Blue Skies........

[Pujgnie]

As Andy says.. Lightnings leak fuel. I know that first hand from Golf dispersal Akrotiri (56 Sqn).

Any loss of an aircraft and pilot is bad enough - but one of the precious few Lightnings left in the world makes this doubly tragic. I can understand what it must mean within the Lightning fraternity.

Stay with it mate. What you are doing with your 2 steeds makes it all more appreciable to everyone.

[Air]

What's the ejection sequence in a Lightning? I'd assume that big canopy has to be blown first on the two seater before the seat moves? Is it the same in a single seater, or would they go through the canopy?

Only one small thing to be grateful of regarding the crash is that they weren't carrying a passenger. I've heard a competition winner was due to fly in that aircraft in the afternoon.

[Mayfly]

I believe I'm right in saying [because I only worked second line in the 30mm gun bay on Lightnings] but the seat can not go unless the canopy has been jettisoned. On some a/c the seat can go through the canopy but I think on a lightning the canopy frame is too narrow for the seat to pass through.

[Xplumberlives]

I believe I'm right in saying [because I only worked second line in the 30mm gun bay on Lightnings] but the seat can not go unless the canopy has been jettisoned. On some a/c the seat can go through the canopy but I think on a lightning the canopy frame is too narrow for the seat to pass through.

I think you're right M.F. from my time training on the lightning seats I think there was an interlock, but am happy to be told I am wrong by a more knowledgable person!