media coverage

[Mark36]

http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/new ... ticle.html

thought some of you might like to read this and the comments attached.
I'm afraid thats the general feeling round these parts.
its been hidden away somewhat on the other side probably due to the comments.
sorry my 1st post isn't more positive

[Xplumberlives]

Thank you, have you introduced yourself in the NEW MEMBERS thread?

[Mayfly]

Hello Mark

It is very sad to see comments like that from an area that used to be the home of some of her staunchest supporters. I've said before the management has never truly appreciated the damage that stemmed from Waddington last year, but on the bright side the plight has reached a newspaper so hopefully will drum up some support from some fans in these parts.

[Mark36]

Hi Mayfly
yes it is not nice to read comments like that but unfortunately round here they are quite commonplace,certainly from people i have managed to get interested in the past.This time around I feel like i'm just banging my head on the proverbial brick wall.
I'm afraid the article is a bit like a stuck record and could almost be a re-run of previous articles the Echo has run on the subject and people just don't buy it anymore

[Dan4th]

So far the charity has £200,000 in donations but needs more than £300,000 in new pledges by the end of February to avoid being grounded forever

I'm sorry if I'm being stoopid, but I
have a hard time believing that The
Trust is the ONLY one who can fly her.

Hardly anything in life is this Black and
White simple.

D.

[Jigsaw]

So far the charity has £200,000 in donations but needs more than £300,000 in new pledges by the end of February to avoid being grounded forever

I'm sorry if I'm being stoopid, but I
have a hard time believing that The
Trust is the ONLY one who can fly her.

Hardly anything in life is this Black and
White simple.

D.

I obviously have the same levels of stoopidity D4th as I have been thinking that very same thing.

[Dan4th]

I've been thinking about this a lot, Jiggs,
and what I really do hope is this:

IF The Trust should go "Tits Up", as you
Brits are so fond of saying, I pray that
they don't act like the homicidal jilted
lover and say: "Well, if EYE can't have
her, then NO ONE will have her!!!!"

Their actions in a this event could
very well be the make-or-break for any
flying future she might have in other
hands. I believe strongly that the first
priority ought to be to avoid putting
up obstacles which would make it more
difficult or impossible for someone else
to step in and take over.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is for
Avro Vulcan XH558 to Fly and be Seen
and be Heard. At this point, it doesn't
matter who does it.

Dan4th

[Xplumberlives]

Bravo Dan4th

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is for
Avro Vulcan XH558 to Fly and be Seen
and be Heard. At this point, it doesn't
matter who does it.

Let us hope that the sentiment of your last paragraph is paramount!

[Jigsaw]

spot on

[Ducati Boy]

Bravo Dan4th

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is for
Avro Vulcan XH558 to Fly and be Seen
and be Heard. At this point, it doesn't
matter who does it.

Let us hope that the sentiment of your last paragraph is paramount!

At the risk of being deleted if my comments don't please a "moderator", I shall attempt to answer XP and D4th and while I am at it try and explain the repercussions of simply replacing part or all of TVOC as the operating company for XH558.

"THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is for Avro Vulcan XH558 to be seen and be Heard" I absolutely have to say D4th is correct there.

However, at this moment in time it very much does "matter who does it" because only certain people are qualified enough to actually be allowed to do it at all.

With the time constraints the engineers have to meet to get her flying in 2010, someone other than TVOC trying to take over now would be disasterous, heres why I think so:

1.Such changes would cause the CAA to temporarily suspend the CAA authority awarded as a result of the Marshall Aerospace BCAR A8-20 Exposition document, which details the terms under which any work on the Vulcan is to be actually done. In that document everything required to support an aircraft maintenance process is listed including:
a. Who are the responsible managers, both MA and TVOC.
b. Who is qualified to manage, supervise or work on the aircraft.
c. What training is required, who provides it and to what level.
d. Who does what, to what level and how many are there.
There is much, much more, it is a very detailed document, very tightly administered and changes must be agreed with the CAA before they can be made.

2. As a result of such changes MA would generate an auditing process, necessary to re-validate the credentials of whatever new people or systems are being changed, so they can re-apply for the suspension to be lifted. That process alone would be astronomically expensive and could take many months to complete. In the meantime all work would be suspended too and the aircraft would not be ready to fly in 2010. For instance merely using a hangar at an RAF station to fix a fault can trigger a temporary suspension until an audit is completed by MA. Once the audit proves the hangar suitable evidence is submitted to the CAA to justify lifting the suspension.

3. The award of a Permit to Fly and the engineering authorities, necessary to allow us to work on the aircraft at all, are dependent on our relationships, as a company, with both Marshall Aerospace and the CAA. These working relationships have taken a long time and a lot of working experience to establish. TVOCs proven ability to actually do the engineering work to get the Vulcan in the air, then keep repeating that to very high standards, has resulted in our achieveing the respect,trust and confidence of the CAA. Were another company or management team to step in this late in the preparation, for 2010 season build up, the chaos resulting would take many months to overcome, in the meantime the bills would still have to be paid.

4. The management and/ or the supervisory staff necessary to replace TVOC personnel would hold no CAA or MA delegated authorities to actually operate a Vulcan. To provide Vulcan specific type training, achieve actual working experience on type (not possible with the suspension of the BCAR) and re-gain the confidence of the CAA could take a very long time. To achieve the necessary revised MA BCAR authority could take up to a year or so, probably more. Think how long it took to reach the start of work on the restoration. So one can see that a simple replacement of TVOC or its personnel is not without repurcussions.

However easy it is for the armchair generals to come up with quick fix plans, they are not here in the trenches with us and simply don't see the actuality and enormity of the task we choose to accept. Newspaper and other forums are always full of comment by the uniformed, ignorant few, who choose to shout about whatever they feel folk will listen to. I would respect them if they could actually manage basic spelling! Just like the politicians they emulate, they are a loud minority, who are not representative of the rest of us, we just get on with the job.

If I have offended anyone who recognises themselves in my last paragraph, I am truly happy

What we need to do now is get on with the job of putting our Vulcan in the air in 2010, to quote D4th:

"THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is for Avro Vulcan XH558 to be seen and be Heard".

Lets get on with it now

[Xplumberlives]

Bravo Dan4th

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is for
Avro Vulcan XH558 to Fly and be Seen
and be Heard. At this point, it doesn't
matter who does it.

Let us hope that the sentiment of your last paragraph is paramount!

At the risk of being deleted if my comments don't please a "moderator", I shall attempt to answer XP and D4th and while I am at it try and explain the repercussions of simply replacing part or all of TVOC as the operating company for XH558.

"THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is for Avro Vulcan XH558 to be seen and be Heard" I absolutely have to say D4th is correct there.

However, at this moment in time it very much does "matter who does it" because only certain people are qualified enough to actually be allowed to do it at all.

With the time constraints the engineers have to meet to get her flying in 2010, someone other than TVOC trying to take over now would be disasterous, heres why I think so:

1.Such changes would cause the CAA to temporarily suspend the CAA authority awarded as a result of the Marshall Aerospace BCAR A8-20 Exposition document, which details the terms under which any work on the Vulcan is to be actually done. In that document everything required to support an aircraft maintenance process is listed including:
a. Who are the responsible managers, both MA and TVOC.
b. Who is qualified to manage, supervise or work on the aircraft.
c. What training is required, who provides it and to what level.
d. Who does what, to what level and how many are there.
There is much, much more, it is a very detailed document, very tightly administered and changes must be agreed with the CAA before they can be made.

2. As a result of such changes MA would generate an auditing process, necessary to re-validate the credentials of whatever new people or systems are being changed, so they can re-apply for the suspension to be lifted. That process alone would be astronomically expensive and could take many months to complete. In the meantime all work would be suspended too and the aircraft would not be ready to fly in 2010. For instance merely using a hangar at an RAF station to fix a fault can trigger a temporary suspension until an audit is completed by MA. Once the audit proves the hangar suitable evidence is submitted to the CAA to justify lifting the suspension.

3. The award of a Permit to Fly and the engineering authorities, necessary to allow us to work on the aircraft at all, are dependent on our relationships, as a company, with both Marshall Aerospace and the CAA. These working relationships have taken a long time and a lot of working experience to establish. TVOCs proven ability to actually do the engineering work to get the Vulcan in the air, then keep repeating that to very high standards, has resulted in our achieveing the respect,trust and confidence of the CAA. Were another company or management team to step in this late in the preparation, for 2010 season build up, the chaos resulting would take many months to overcome, in the meantime the bills would still have to be paid.

4. The management and/ or the supervisory staff necessary to replace TVOC personnel would hold no CAA or MA delegated authorities to actually operate a Vulcan. To provide Vulcan specific type training, achieve actual working experience on type (not possible with the suspension of the BCAR) and re-gain the confidence of the CAA could take a very long time. To achieve the necessary revised MA BCAR authority could take up to a year or so, probably more. Think how long it took to reach the start of work on the restoration. So one can see that a simple replacement of TVOC or its personnel is not without repurcussions.

However easy it is for the armchair generals to come up with quick fix plans, they are not here in the trenches with us and simply don't see the actuality and enormity of the task we choose to accept. Newspaper and other forums are always full of comment by the uniformed, ignorant few, who choose to shout about whatever they feel folk will listen to. I would respect them if they could actually manage basic spelling! Just like the politicians they emulate, they are a loud minority, who are not representative of the rest of us, we just get on with the job.

If I have offended anyone who recognises themselves in my last paragraph, I am truly happy

What we need to do now is get on with the job of putting our Vulcan in the air in 2010, to quote D4th:

"THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is for Avro Vulcan XH558 to be seen and be Heard".

Lets get on with it now

So who are the UNIFORMED ignorant few who shout loudly and CAN'T SPELL?

[Jigsaw]

I bet that made ya fingers ache

[Mayfly]

At risk of getting getting my wrists slapped by Wedgy -


The comments that were deleted in the Hangar Tours thread were deleted out of respect for the Engineers on the day they received their redundancy notices. That thread had degenerated & as it was a 'positive' thread a decision was made to strip it back to the bones. It was not a decision made because it didn't please a moderator - I reiterate was done out of respect which it appears was obviously misguided.

[Xplumberlives]

At risk of getting getting my wrists slapped by Wedgy -


The comments that were deleted in the Hangar Tours thread were deleted out of respect for the Engineers on the day they received their redundancy notices. That thread had degenerated & as it was a 'positive' thread a decision was made to strip it back to the bones. It was not a decision made because it didn't please a moderator - I reiterate was done out of respect which it appears was obviously misguided.

How VERY interesting!

[Mayfly]

What is?

[Jigsaw]

What is?

The theory of relativity if you like that sort of thing (I could have been soooo rude then)

Oh yeah....well said MF

[Wedgy]

At risk of getting getting my wrists slapped by Wedgy -


The comments that were deleted in the Hangar Tours thread were deleted out of respect for the Engineers on the day they received their redundancy notices. That thread had degenerated & as it was a 'positive' thread a decision was made to strip it back to the bones. It was not a decision made because it didn't please a moderator - I reiterate was done out of respect which it appears was obviously misguided.

1) Moderators had nothing to do with it. I saw the thread by the start of page 2. I wasn't happy - deemed it disrespectful to the Engineers because of their hard work and the timing. I asked for 3 people to agree with me, I got 4 and stripped the thread.
2) Ironically, I didn't find anything wrong with DB's post - but is was a continuation of a series of posts that didn't exist anymore.

[Hula-Hoop]

How very interesting.

[Ducati Boy]

Xp,
uniformed = "similar in view or appearance, identical in thought or dress", I believe thats in context and perfectly correct mate.

Mayfly, reference us engineers being affected by redundancy notice. Thanks for the kind thought Pam, but, we are used to the process and are made of sterner stuff, we are after all British! Thats why we are still beavering away on a Vulcan, mission impossible for some, but not us! . Besides, I like a fight

Jigsaw, my fingers did ache and my head too. The object of the exercise was to show people there is more to making simplistic changes than one might realise. Hopefully it explained some of the process to those who did not know, always assuming they are prepared to read it. No one can say they were not told.

[Xplumberlives]

Are you sure you didn't mean to put UNINFORMED?

[Za150]

Xp,
uniformed = "similar in view or appearance, identical in thought or dress", I believe thats in context and perfectly correct mate.

Mayfly, reference us engineers being affected by redundancy notice. Thanks for the kind thought Pam, but, we are used to the process and are made of sterner stuff, we are after all British! Thats why we are still beavering away on a Vulcan, mission impossible for some, but not us! . Besides, I like a fight

Jigsaw, my fingers did ache and my head too. The object of the exercise was to show people there is more to making simplistic changes than one might realise. Hopefully it explained some of the process to those who did not know, always assuming they are prepared to read it. No one can say they were not told.

DB i thought your post was an excellent read

[Jigsaw]

Xp,
uniformed = "similar in view or appearance, identical in thought or dress", I believe thats in context and perfectly correct mate.

Mayfly, reference us engineers being affected by redundancy notice. Thanks for the kind thought Pam, but, we are used to the process and are made of sterner stuff, we are after all British! Thats why we are still beavering away on a Vulcan, mission impossible for some, but not us! . Besides, I like a fight

Jigsaw, my fingers did ache and my head too. The object of the exercise was to show people there is more to making simplistic changes than one might realise. Hopefully it explained some of the process to those who did not know, always assuming they are prepared to read it. No one can say they were not told.

DB i thought your post was an excellent read

Ditto

[Scubaman]

hi all

my first post on here been on other site and wondered where everyone had gone. Any way thought I would just say what a great job all the engineers are doing under very difficult circumstances I have done my bit upping my standing order to £20 per month hope it helps.It was very sad to read the negative comments in the lincolnshire echo if only she had flown at waddington we might be in a better position.Just wish she was at waddo so i could have a hanger tour

James

[Dan4th]

Selfcontainedunderwaterbreathingapparatusman!

Put up a post on the newbie section and we'll all
get to say "Hi!".

Dan4th

[Mackrick]

Nice post Pat....

I wondered what had happened to a couple of posts in the other thread, thanks for the explanation Wedgy / MF ...