Who can we thank for the Harrier?

[MOD]

Firstly a French genius called Msr Wibault and the USA....

The Pegasus was to be built by P+W under RR license.

http://www.harrier.org.uk/history/history1_1.htm

The Yanks even invented VIFFING after seeing a prototype Harrier display at Farnborough. The story goes that 2 US Marine Corps' Colonels witnessed the display and asked for permission to fly it themselves. As they were part of the US Marine Corps procurement team they were given the go ahead and went on to invent the VIFFING (Vectoring In Forward Flight) manoeuvre which became part of the US Marine Corps' dogfighting technique. In dissimilar combat training the US F-4s were told NOT to follow a Harrier if it bunted into a dive as the Harrier could suddenly come to standstill whilst still pointing towards the ground at steep nose down angle. I understand that Phantoms were lost not realising that the Harrier in front had , in effect , done an emergency stop whilst 'diving' for the ground..

Still yesterday was a very sad day for the RAF, and the RN, as there is no readily available replacement. The heap of doggie doo that is earmarked is still years away...

Isn't/aren't politics wonderful?

Luckily for me my memories and photos go back to a much simpler era ie when The Cold War and total annihilation were just around the corner. At least everyone knew who the enemy was then and could plan accordingly..

[Jigsaw]

Now post pics

[Bovril]

The Pegasus was built by RR under license.

????

[MOD]

The Pegasus was going to be built by P+W under RR license.

????

[Sooty655]

Firstly a French genius called Msr Wibault and the USA....

M. Wibault's design was for vectored thrust from separate lift engines or shaft-driven fans (similar to the RR multi-engine proposals which followed their flying bedstead work). Bristol's design to vector the thrust from a single engine was entirely their own, although they did subsequently employ M. Wibault as a consultant.

Still yesterday was a very sad day for the RAF, and the RN, as there is no readily available replacement. The heap of doggie doo that is earmarked is still years away...

Yes, a sad day, but simply the latest chapter in what has been a sad forty years when multiple opportunities to keep British aero-engineering at the cutting edge have been squandered by successive governments of all colours.

BS100/P1154, TSR2, Black Knight, Blue Steel successors, on and on to the latest fiasco of scrapping "brand new" Nimrods that BAe were having to cobble together out of very old (and very corroded) Comet airframes.

Luckily for me my memories and photos go back to a much simpler era ie when The Cold War and total annihilation were just around the corner. At least everyone knew who the enemy was then and could plan accordingly..

Most of the disastrous cancellations and submissions to US pressure occurred during the height of the cold war. "Plan accordingly" - I can't think of a single example.

We live in the only country in the world which has developed, demonstrated and scrapped the ability to launch satellites.

Makes you really proud, doesn't it?

[Xplumberlives]

Amen!

[Old Rigger]

sooty 655

scrapping "brand new" Nimrods that BAe were having to cobble together out of very old (and very corroded) Comet airframes

I am afraid none of the Nimrods was ever a Comet airframe with the possible exception of the Canopus at Bruntingthorpe, and the airframes that were utilised for MRA4 were virtually corrosion free and what was there was safely removed, effectively they were refurbished to almost new conditon and that was only the pressurised 'tube' that was re-used from the MR2s, the rest was new build from scratch.

[Sooty655]

sooty 655

scrapping "brand new" Nimrods that BAe were having to cobble together out of very old (and very corroded) Comet airframes

I am afraid none of the Nimrods was ever a Comet airframe with the possible exception of the Canopus at Bruntingthorpe, and the airframes that were utilised for MRA4 were virtually corrosion free and what was there was safely removed, effectively they were refurbished to almost new conditon and that was only the pressurised 'tube' that was re-used from the MR2s, the rest was new build from scratch.

I'll take your word for it, OR, but it certainly wasn't the impression I was given on a tour of the production facility a year ago. I accept that the word "Comet" was tongue in cheek, but it wasn't far off in design terms. The condition of the airframes as received certainly wasn't pretty, and one of the things that was stressed was the need to rework all the "completed" airframes whenever corrosion was found in a new area on the one currently "in work".

[Nickolas]

Where can I buy 'scratch'????

Nearly EVERYTHING is built/ made from it. I have searched the inter-web high and low and no one sells the damn stuff.

Any ideas people????

[Sooty655]

Where can I buy 'scratch'????

Nearly EVERYTHING is built/ made from it. I have searched the inter-web high and low and no one sells the damn stuff.

Any ideas people????

I think you'll find it on ebay in the same section as Unobtanium, which was the nickel alloy used in the design of turbine blades by both RR and Bristol. It always had a creep temperature 20degC higher than current alloys, and the theory was it would be available by the time the design went into production.

Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

[MOD]

I always thought it was a place ie I started again from Scratch, probably somewhere near Itchington.

[Xplumberlives]

I always thought it was a place ie I started again from Scratch, probably somewhere near Itchington.

GROAN, next you lot will be harping on about where can you get a ROUND TO-IT!

[RLN]

Funny you should mention that, but.............

[Sooty655]

You mean like this one...........

[RLN]

Exactly.

[Xplumberlives]

Of all people, fancy that it's YOU that came back with that image!

[Old Rigger]

S655 I know there was corrosion but there were people who did make it out to be far worse than it looked (the brown 'rust' that some pointed out was PRC sealant, as most people I think know that aluminium corrosion is white/grey), more than likely to try and convince the MOD that new fuselages should be built as well, i.e. a new build aircraft.

Having said that, the fuselages chosen were completely checked/refurbished/tested and all cleared as good to go, if they were not they would not have been used and cleared for the expected life of the MRA4.

Sorry for continuing the off topic element of the thread

[MOD]

M. Wibault's design was for vectored thrust from separate lift engines or shaft-driven fans (similar to the RR multi-engine proposals which followed their flying bedstead work). Bristol's design to vector the thrust from a single engine was entirely their own, although they did subsequently employ M. Wibault as a consultant.

Not so. Please see the following P1127 history page.

http://www.harrier.org.uk/history/history1_1.htm


Anyway whoever takes credit for the design it is now all ancient history..

As regards my other comment quoted ie 'Plan Accordingly' this doesn't mean Plan Well!! We all know that to the MOD that is very definately an oxymoron...

[Sooty655]

M. Wibault's design was for vectored thrust from separate lift engines or shaft-driven fans (similar to the RR multi-engine proposals which followed their flying bedstead work). Bristol's design to vector the thrust from a single engine was entirely their own, although they did subsequently employ M. Wibault as a consultant.

Not so. Please see the following P1127 history page.

http://www.harrier.org.uk/history/history1_1.htm


Anyway whoever takes credit for the design it is now all ancient history..

I prefer to take my information from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Try "Not much of an Engineer", Sir Stanley Hooker's autobiography.

You will note from the website you provided that Wibault's Gyroptere used shaft drive to four independent fans.

[MOD]

So it all depends on whose book you read! I don't know who is behind Harrier.org but I have seen this version in other Harrier books.

[Sooty655]

So it all depends on whose book you read! I don't know who is behind Harrier.org but I have seen this version in other Harrier books.

Ain't it always the case.

I guess it all depends what you see as a "significant" difference in a design or approach to a problem. I have always thought that the decision to go with a single engine providing all the lift and the forward propulsion from one set of directly blown nozzles was a significant change to the proposals already existing for shaft driven fans.

As you so rightly say, it's over now, whoever thought of it.

[MOD]

Hi Sooty. We are arguing over where the deck chairs should go just after a loud series of bangs were heard on the Titanic.

My brother and brother-in-law were in the Falklands conflict and they raved about the Harriers. (They weren't all SHARs BTW.)

I'm just glad somebody had a brilliant idea and ran with it .

[Sooty655]

Hi Sooty. We are arguing over where the deck chairs should go just after a loud series of bangs were heard on the Titanic.

My brother and brother-in-law were in the Falklands conflict and they raved about the Harriers. (They weren't all SHARs BTW.)

I'm just glad somebody had a brilliant idea and ran with it .

Obviously starboard so the paying guests can watch the icebergs go past.

It is/was a wonderful aircraft which provided a great deal of service. But maybe I'm biased, as I started my career with Bristol Siddeley as the Harrier was being born.

[Xplumberlives]

Hi Sooty. We are arguing over where the deck chairs should go just after a loud series of bangs were heard on the Titanic.

My brother and brother-in-law were in the Falklands conflict and they raved about the Harriers. (They weren't all SHARs BTW.)

I'm just glad somebody had a brilliant idea and ran with it .

Obviously starboard so the paying guests can watch the icebergs go past.

It is/was a wonderful aircraft which provided a great deal of service. But maybe I'm biased, as I started my career with Bristol Siddeley as the Harrier was being born.

Is that Harrier, son of Kestrel?