558 to Waddington 2nd July (WARNING - HAS BECOME ADULT!)

[Hungry Haggis]

Hi all.

I do not think that the testing on 603 will be a five minute job and could take weeks.The airframe will need to be stripped of its engines etc before the destructive testing can go ahead or at least we at Maps hope so.



CC.

Cheer us up with the news we all sort of guess anyway why not .I have read 3 days 1 week and taken it with a very large pinch of hot curry powder my best guess just to cheer everyone up a bit more is a month to get the permit ,How do i reach that well there is an airshow next week 558 will either be stuck at Waddo or allowed to fly out to Brize or Brunty (God forbid she has to go back there this early).then MA TVOC have to write the report ,Then CAA sit on it for a couple of weeks then the man from CAA he say Yes .But again I prefer it will only take 3 days or so it sounds better.

[Gully]

No doubt Eddie will post more tomorrow.. when he is slightly more sober

OK, his Aerobytes Company have helped with funding over the last 12 months. But why do people raise his name so often, as if he is a demi-god - and can change things instantly by waving a magic wand.

He cannot do anything about this latest cock up.

If someone knows better... please say

Whatever SM thinks of his impartiality, Eddie is an insider and privy to more information regarding this situation than those outside the project commenting on the basis of 'facts' they have assimilated from various sources. Nobody is saying Eddie can change anything, but at least his insights may dispel some some of the rumour and hearsay being presented by some as knowledge.

I also fail to see how VTS putting out a statement during last week to the effect that they may have a problem with the PtF renewal would have helped anyone, given that the final 'no' to the renewal / extension came very late on Friday night. I do think the VTS website should have been updated immediately the answer was known, but I doubt many of those affected would have checked the website on Saturday morning before driving to Waddo.

When '558 next displays is going to be down to whether MA can satisfy the CAA that they have managed to (in the words of the press release) "...establish mitigations for all [the '603] inspections...", or completed the inspections. The former route is obviously the quicker and the one already chosen, as the press release continues to say that conditions of the permit renewal are "...currently not fully met...".

For the sake of the project (and themselves), I hope MA can sign-off the aircraft under Part B (or is it Category B?) of the regulations for flight test purposes so they can transit '558 on to Yeovilton, so she is at the very least on static display. If not, if Waddo can find a corner of a hanger, VTS may as well get on with the port u/c leg change that was planned for the 2-week hiatus in display work at the beginning of August.

Gully

[Saracenman]

Whatever SM thinks of his impartiality, Eddie is an insider and privy to more information regarding this situation than those outside the project commenting on the basis of 'facts' they have assimilated from various sources. Nobody is saying Eddie can change anything, but at least his insights may dispel some some of the rumour and hearsay being presented by some as knowledge...........

sorry Gully but, whilst you and i usually agree on matters, this is one where i know you're wildly wide of the mark!

Eddie Forrester has demonstrated his manipulation of the truth before - it is in his own interests to keep VTS looking good, as his own company benefits by default

for a start, not everything that he says in public tallies what he himself has said to me in person, and secondly, there was one specific occasion where he gave positive spin to a previous VTS balls-up: the Bruce Dickinson matter!

i CAN speak with 100% knowledge on this as it was Mayfly and me that initiated the plan in the first place. the truth about why Mr. Dickinson's offer never amounted to anything was because of VTS management mishandling - this i KNOW to be the case, and yet EF completely 'whitewashed over' that aspect and blamed operational constraints, which WERE utterly untrue!

as a caveat to that, i would NEVER claim that EF himself chose to misrepresent the facts, as it is just as likely that he was not given the whole facts by VTST - can you imagine VTST saying to EF, "Thanks for the many thousands of Quid Eddie, but we were offered a similar amount by a celebrity, but we cocked it up - can you give us more money please?"

if i were in VTST management's shoes, i would be EXTREMELY economical with the truth, lest it piss EF off and sever my flow of cash!

i believe it to be very dangerous to simple swoon over EF and believe everything he says as 'gospel' as he has his own professional agenda. whilst he makes a point of posting on TVOC forum as a mere Club member, he is not blind to the fact that he has a 'groupie' following and can very easily manipulate some others' opinions. he's not daft - that's what makes him a successful businessman!

can you imagine ANY circumstances whereby EF would 'publicly' state that VTST's management is inept and should be replaced? i can only think of ONE such instance - when Aerobytes would stand to BENEFIT financially by such a comment!

i have spoken to EF several times, and i like the guy - but i am a long way from treating him as some all-knowing god, because the man has deep pockets!

having money doesn't automatically mean you're always RIGHT!

sm

[Gully]

SM, I actually don't think we do disagree! I stand by my point that Eddie does indeed have more knowledge of what is going on than most who are posting and thus his insights are helpful. However, I'm not naive in believing that what he presents is anything other than Aerobytes-glossed and spun for his benefit. I'd also like to think that he's sensible enough to not take VTS's word on certain matters, given their track record!

My post was merely identifying to Pujnie WHY people afford great credence to what he says.

Gully

[Saracenman]

Fairy Nuff Gully - i see where you were coming from now

i just get sick and tired of this Eddie-adulation - the truth is that he:

a) can clearly afford to give what he has

b) benefits from it!

those who are currently struggling to make ends meet are the people who's opinion really matters to me - and it is typically they who get fobbed off with all manner of crap that comes out of VTST mouths

i do wonder if EF actually gets as balanced a view on matters as even i do, insignificant as i am - my info usually comes from all manner of sources, enabling me to determine which bits are probably reliable and which aren't. does EF get this wide-range of reports i wonder?

sm

[Dangerousdave]

I've not met EF personally but I know he gives lots of money to the project. Yeah, hemay be luck enough to be loaded, but he doesn't HAVE to give a penny. I know as well as donating a lot of money he also paid numerous wages of engineers which he clearly didnt have to do.
I personally feel he is one of the good guys and I feel sorry for him being stuck in the middle of the whole fiasco.

[Saracenman]

yeah i do too. i know it may sound as if I'm anti EF - nothing could be further from the truth actually.

he and i have had a few conversations in the past, and he DOES have influence with some in VTS. he has also been very supportive of some of the things that I've been involved in and I'm certain that without him, i would've struggled even more.

i just get sick and tired of the knitting-circle who believe that he has all the answers!

sm

[Wedgy]

2 topics of interest on TVOC forum:

SM's vote
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6750

Near the bottom of page 3, an interesting point I had TOTALLY forgotten about until this morning.
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6727&whichpage=3

[Mayfly]

I go out for 2 days & everyone runs riot..........speaks volumes

having read [only] 17 pages over on TVOC & this thread I don't think there is anything for me to say that hasn't already been said,

However I think SM is spot on with his analogy of there being a world of difference between Blameworthy & Responsible, Football managers don't play football but if the team consistently perform poorly he's the one that gets the chop....

Should someone fall on their sword for the good of the project? your opinions may differ from mine, it will be interesting to see how long it takes for this to get sorted. I generally find that it's not the physical work that takes the time, but the report writing & the analysis of that work,

The unfortunate thing is there slightly dirty nappies & very full ones, this was a very full one & when it hit the fan EVERYONE associated with the project got covered, for that reason alone someone needs to take responsibility for the long term good of the project.

[Mayfly]

First of all in reply to the 2 girls who were [I assume] HIRED to get out front & promote VTST its not the first time it's been done, they were used at RIAT 3-4 years ago....

these girls were doing what they were asked to do, some of the terminology used about them is utterly disgraceful & they should receive an apology in public for those remarks.

It is true there were not 'out front' on Saturday because those who make the choices decided it was not fair to put them in the public eye until they knew what the reaction of the crowd would be. To my mind a fair & just decision. They were wearing what they given to wear so it is down the the VTS/Club [delete as appropriate] as to the impression they wish to portray.

Now to the fact of should the VTST/Club be hiring them in the first place. IMO NO, they shouldn't have 4 years ago & they shouldn't now........the reasons why have been stated elsewhere.

[Wedgy]

Looks like the waddington thread has now been removed because of those comments on the 2 ladies.

[Mayfly]

haha thats why it went down whilst I was reading it then.

No need for the thread to be taken down [unless they have simply quartined it for the time being] all they needed to do was remove the offending remarks.

I did hear the actual words quoted in the thread spoken on Saturday & was surprised the person concerned wasn't taken to task at the over it!!!!

[Hihonyr8811]

I think the problem was (and why it was removed compleatly) was because several people quoted the bits that were offensive, so probably easier to just delete it, than go through 5 or 6 pages and remove the quotes of quotes

On Saturday when I saw the two girls, I have to admit to, whilst not saying what Aggy did , I did stop suddenly and ask what the heck lol

To be honest, if the club/trust/whoever, were worried about how the public would be because of the news, then the best thing would have been to send them home.
Not really the day to roll out the cute girls with leaflets IMO, not if there are rather annoyed public at large.
If the VV volunteers had to answer diffcult questions, then not really the time or place for the girls Just my opinion. And I'm not even commenting on if they are appropriate at all
As I said, they are probably really lovely people But what we need are people who know that they are talking about, not good looking girls hired because they are good looking, gives the wrong impression of the organisation. Especially when we're in the middle of a crisis.

[Mayfly]

sorry to keep posting but the brain it a wee dull this morning [tho' you probably won't see a difference]

They say silence speaks volumes & with hind sight I think it says a lot that Robert wasn't present at Waddington to face face the flack himself - I have of course no idea what he was doing this w/e but he was there on Thursday giving TV interviews, so as CEO & Chairperson of the TVST I think it would have been the honourable thing for him do, that is what being at top is all about.....

[Mackrick]

sorry to keep posting but the brain it a wee dull this morning [tho' you probably won't see a difference]

Glad you said that MF

[Mayfly]

I expect better from you MR

[Mackrick]

[IanM]

Section of the permit to fly...

[RLN]

How are they going to get out of the conditions of the last paragraph?

[Mayfly]

There was a red line entry in the F700, when 558 flew into Waddington she was legal.

under certain conditions the CAA will grant an extention to a permit perhaps for 1 flight perhaps for 2 weeks depends on the situation.

The question to be answered here is why was this work not carried out when it was obviously known that it had to be done and indeed it has been known about for well over a year?

[Spitfire]

The question to be answered here is why was this work not carried out when it was obviously known that it had to be done and indeed it has been known about for well over a year?

Section of the permit to fly...

I think we have here - in 2 posts - the complete and utter problem in a nutshell....

They knew a year ago - incontrovertable from the above

They did nothing - which is why she's grounded now

Seems cut and dried to me now

[Hungry Haggis]

But BUT unles I have forgot how to spell wasn't last Thursday 2nd JULY 2009 therefore is after JUNE .So did they have permision to take of etc that day from CAA /MA ,? Probably knowing that when she landed she would be grounded ,Can this debacle get any worse?


Edit as mentioned before I'm waiting to see if get a responce to an email.Last time it only took them about 5 weeks and then it was a load of spin.

[Mayfly]

yes it was a legal flight HH the permit didn't run out until midnight on the 2nd, I think the June was only a reference point in time & drafted before the permit was issued.

[Nickolas]

Guys, although we have the 'evidence' so to speak, we need to keep MA 'on side'. Please keep this to ourselves as it it gets into the major external forums or indeed the 'other' forum then mud will get lobbed about.
Yes it was a monumental cock up but we need to keep MA sweet so they get the sampling done and we can get to RIAT. I think that unless 558 transits to Yeovilton as a test flight and is on static then this weekend coming can be written off.

[Gully]

Personally, I'm not getting involved in the ongoing speculation over who did what / knew what and when, as I see nothing to be gained from it. The PtF wording was drafted over a year ago and we are not privvy to the discussions and negotiations that have taken place since. For example, the wording of the joint MA / VTS press release makes reference to mitigation of the inspections, which makes it pretty clear that this was the avenue being pursued in order to secure either the renewal or short-term extension of the PtF.

However, commercial confidentiality clauses will almost certainly dictate that we never officially find out any more than has already been said. I hope the person accountable within VTS for the foul-up departs the organisation, as this would be a real catharsis IMO and enable the VTS business to move forward from this bleak time.

Gully