Engineering Director

[Sploosher]

Thanks for that info Smiler........................


At least I can go one better than Andrew on one thing...........................


I did 12 years in the RAF........................

[Jigsaw]

Thanks for that info Smiler........................


At least I can go one better than Andrew on one thing...........................


I did 12 years in the RAF........................

You would have done more if you hadn't started telling jokes

[Xplumberlives]

Brilliant!

[Sploosher]

Thanks for that info Smiler........................


At least I can go one better than Andrew on one thing...........................


I did 12 years in the RAF........................

You would have done more if you hadn't started telling jokes

Thats my secret out then.....................

you promised you would not tell..................

[Flipflopman]

DLW,

So you have it on authority that he was an 'Erk' do you?

So what were you then, my friend?.....Obviously, to base your statements upon such a level, you must have been much more that an 'erk and must also have also put yourself in harms way for HM forces'?

No?

Perhaps you might consider closing your arse and using your mouth instead then?

As an aside from this, is anyone else noticing a major lack of aircraft operation in Andrew's CV, and a major lack of aircraft experience FULL STOP?

6 Years in the RAF? Lawnmowing project management??

And that qualifies you to run a specialist aircraft display organisation how exactly, Mr Edmondson?


Flipflopman

[Dan4th]

Someone had to say it.

Thank you, Ron.

Danf.

[Sploosher]

I[color=#0040BF]I am told person was an erk in the RAF. This would exemplify his attitude [heresay].
What galls me is that I am sure they know this site exists and they cannot be bothered to read these threads: or think they are above them!!!!!
Unfortunetly we have no option [earlier post from another party re caa stuff] but to tolerate their incompetance.
It saddens me alot.[/color]

I take exception to that remark, I was an erk as you put it!! please don't make sweeping statements.............

I too was an `erk` (for 12 years)and damned proud of it...................

[Nickolas]

If it weren't for the 'erks' nothing would have flown.
Let's not loose sight of the important people here.

So in summary the bombing campaigns of the second world war was all the fault of the 'erks' for providing serviceable aircraft then. (tongue firmly in cheek here OK??)

Yes there is a distinct lack of A/c related entries on the CV.!!

[Smiler]

If it weren't for the 'erks' nothing would have flown.

Yes there is a distinct lack of A/c related entries on the CV.!!

So 6 years in the RAF and I take it you are not including the 8 years on this project! I also know that Andrew gave up his time as a volunteer for VAH or whatever they are and took over the Crew Chief role on XH558 when they use to do the taxi runs etc, and that's not included.

I have had enough now, you whinge when you don't get the information and when you do it's never enough or GOOD enough!

BYE!!

[P.eames]

For some reason some of us have been going through and updating CV's and I happen to catch a glimse of Andrew's and have authority from him to post some extracts as follows:

.

Those that have commented on Mr Edmundson's C.V. should take note of the two highlighted words.

Now for all i know he may be useless or he may be the best thing since sliced bread, but what i do know that its a little unfair to judge on what is only extracts from a C.V.

At the risk of being shouted at i have to say that you lot are begining to look as if your just looking for a excuse to have a go at the business/managment.

[RLN]

No excuse required

[Nickolas]

If it weren't for the 'erks' nothing would have flown.

Yes there is a distinct lack of A/c related entries on the CV.!!

So 6 years in the RAF and I take it you are not including the 8 years on this project! I also know that Andrew gave up his time as a volunteer for VAH or whatever they are and took over the Crew Chief role on XH558 when they use to do the taxi runs etc, and that's not included.

I have had enough now, you whinge when you don't get the information and when you do it's never enough or GOOD enough!

BYE!!

Ah, hold on a minute please Taff, I'm not suggesting the the content of the CV was irrelevant to the incumbents current position just that there was not much to note regarding aircraft.

There is also no need to tear your hair out.........

[P.eames]

No excuse required

Maybe not, Then again we only get a one sided view of whats going on don't we? It may be that some of those complaining have had direct experience but we don't know the other sides story do we?

Mr Stone said that it was an extract from Mr Edmundson's CV yet that didn't stop comments about his lack of experience around aircraft did it? I am more than aware of all sorts of tales and anecdotes of the managements short comings but when such things are relaid to me i never take them as a given fact for the obvious reasons. one for instance is the one about the club member who threatened legal action over trademark use, now thats hardly nice given the current financial situation is it? So the anecdotes of bad practice/poor attitude etc etc run both ways.

[RLN]

All I know is - I had my own business in the '80s. If I had run it as VTTS is being run, or the people weren't up to it, it would have folded. If people didn't perform, they went. My busines went from strength to strenggth, until I fell out with my partner, who bought me out. The business crashed six months later. It doesn't matter what the business is, the people at the top take the flak (or they should, if they are honest). I have nothing against these people personally, I'm not that sort, but it is frustrating to have the same old every year. Don't they learn lessons? I feel really sorry for the engineers and support staff, as every year their way of life and livelihood is threatened because of decisions taken by those at the top. There is no need for this.

[Flipflopman]

While I believe P.Eames to be totally correct and fair in his view that "There are two sides to every story", in this instance I stand firmly behind my comments.

I commented that there is a distinct lack of Aircraft Operation and also general lack of Aircraft Experience

Whether or not you wish to count his years on BAH, there is still a complete absence of experience in Aircraft Operation, and I can assure you P.Eames, that Andrew's complete and unabridged CV would not include any either. The 8 years on TVOC are surely a moot point, are they not, given the fact that Mr Edmondson started in his current post as "Engineering Director" without them.


Flipflopman

[P.eames]

Good point Mr Evans, and i guess your in a better position to comment than most.

[Dougs]

i dont understand the importace laid down on the cv of the imcumbant engineering manager as experiance dose not go hand in hand with competance if you are a dynamic manager you dont need to know it all you just need to manage the people who do! I have to say that this is all looking like a distastefull personal bashing thread. i dont know the guy so cant comment on his ability and nor am i very impressed with the way 558 is being run but i am even less impressed with this thread!
p.s. please excuse the spelling

[Nickolas]

While I believe P.Eames to be totally correct and fair in his view that "There are two sides to every story", in this instance I stand firmly behind my comments.

I commented that there is a distinct lack of Aircraft Operation and also general lack of Aircraft Experience

Whether or not you wish to count his years on BAH, there is still a complete absence of experience in Aircraft Operation, and I can assure you P.Eames, that Andrew's complete and unabridged CV would not include any either. The 8 years on TVOC are surely a moot point, are they not, given the fact that Mr Edmondson started in his current post as "Engineering Director" without them.


Flipflopman

Lack of 'Street cred' springs to mind.

The engineers and your good self all have the street cred and therefore the respect due.

You guys can talk the talk and walk the walk.

If you asked the forumeers and the supporters to pull 558 from Lyneham to Brize we'd probably only ask 'when do you want it done?' as we have the utmost faith in you all. You guys have out absolute respect.

No street cred makes it hard to give the respect.

[P.eames]

Thats a bit like voting for a politician based on how cool his clothes are!

Up until now Mr Edmundson has been criticized by persons who to be perfectly frank have no real basis to do so, From what i see the critics have no real involvement in the day to day business of operating the Vulcan so what makes them qualified to comment or criticize? The only one i have seen to have any real basis to comment is Mr Evans.

No doubt there will be posts along the lines of how they were ignored etc but as i said earlier its one side of a probable multi faceted situation. What i want to know is what qualifies those that criticize to do so? I only ask this in the interest of fairness and balance. Do any of you have any experiance in running a complex display aircraft?

[Flipflopman]

Thank you very much for your kind words P.eames.

I am ashamed to admit that I don't know your Christian name, so please forgive me for referring to you by your Forum name, I mean no disrespect.

As regards the comments of others and their experience with TVOC management, you may well be surprised to discover the level of involvement that many on this forum have had with TVOC, and how far back that involvement goes. Nickolas and others (Mayfly, Saracenman, Explumberlives etc..) have all been around this project for a very long time and as club members and the initiators of major fundraising initiatives, have had many dealings with the persons in question. I shall leave it to them to fight their own corner, however, I feel it is unfair for it to be suggested that they have no right to reply, when this is very much not the case.

Nick,

Thanks also to you, and you can be sure that the trust and respect thing works both ways, mate.

Dougs,

With respect, I can't agree with you at all there. What you are saying makes a mockery of the whole idea of CV's and the need to have relevent experience in a particular branch. By your views, I could tomorrow apply for a Consultant Heart Surgeon's role, on the premise that I'm a dynamic manager, and can manage all of the actual surgeons who actually DO know how to carry out a triple bypass operation. I'm sure that not only would I be in a brilliant position as to judge when things are not being done correctly, but I would be held in the highest regard and could garner the utmost respect of my workforce, couldn't I?.... or then again perhaps not.....


Flipflopman

[P.eames]

I only asked as a neutral, i have no involvement with 558 and its operators, nor do i have any with the club etc. I read so much about the aircraft and alot of it is highly critical that it makes me wonder what qualifies such criticism, On other fora (or should that be forums?) it's clear that a lot of them are little more than arm chair experts who have read a book and think they know it all. I am not out to attack anyone but after reading the thread asking for Mr Edmundson's qualifications it made me wonder what qualifies others to stand in judgment on his ability -or lack of- to be the engineering director.


Phil

[Dan4th]

Mister Eames:::::::::::::

I think it's fair to say that there are people who
have successfully run display aircraft.

I think it is also fair to say that the running of
XH558 has not been successful.

I think it would be wise to involve someone in
the running of the Vulcan whose idea of keeping
her in the air involves more that just "Give us
the money and you can say you were the ones that
paid for it".

I think there are many people on this forum who
have been watching events for many years and
who have a right to their opinions.

Why is it that you can't take Flipflopman's post
at face value?

His take on things carries more weight than
anything that EYE could ever say.....

It isn't the assignment of blame that is important
here. What IS important is that the Vulcan FLIES
in 2010 and beyond.

I wish that certain individuals could see that their
efforts are not what is required at this stage.

Danf.

[Flipflopman]

I understand your position totally, Phil , and perhaps to the surprise of many, totally agree with you.

Forums (according to google fora and forums are both accepted terms ) such as Key Publishing and UKAR are indeed filled with "Armchair Experts" who have had minimal, if any contact with TVOC yet still see fit to pontificate. Iconic is a little different in that it was set up, and I hope SM or Wedgy can correct me here, as a haven for those who had become disillusioned with the "Official" TVOC forum and TVOC itself. Perhaps you know all of this, and I'm sorry if I'm giving you an egg sucking lesson, but that is why things are a little different over here. That's also why you'll find the Vulcan as it's own topic!

Hopefully that's not come across as being patronising, and I apologise if it has.

Cheers,


Flipflopman

:::::Edited to reply to Danforth:::::

Danf,

Nail on the head there, old chap!

As you say, there are many, many people who have successfully run display operations, and there are many, many people who have successfully run small airlines, so to suggest that the current incumbents are the only ones who could do so are laughable in the extreme. To suggest that the CAA would also object to someone else running the operation is also laughable. They are concerned with primarily public safety and to ensure the safe operation of aircraft flying in UK airspace. Does anyone seriously think that - and I suggest this for no other reason that people know who they are - the CAA would object to Sir Stelios Haji-Ioannou, Sir Richard Branson or Michael O'Leary operating XH558? No, thought not. There are many others doing just the same job as these gentlemen do, who could do the same for 558, and many others who are NOT currently doing the job, who also could.

Anyhow, I digress,

Danf, don't put yourself down, I think you carry a fair bit of authority yourself!!


Flipflopman

[P.eames]

Mr Danforth

I never take anything at face value, years of experience has taught me not to and i think i said that so far Flipflopman seems to be the only one with any experience of the inside of TVOC hence why i accept what he says.

I do not know yourself or anyone else on this forum, i have no idea what experience anyone has had with The trust or operating company, i merely asked is all. Much the same why Mr Edmundsons qualifications were asked for i believe. I also said i wasn't out to attack anyone. I never said nor implied that anyone doesn't or shouldn't have or air their opinion, all i asked was what qualifies them to question the skills and abilities (or lack of) of Mr Edmundson, I know that i have the knowledge etc to question and assess others in my field of work but when it comes to dairy farming i wouldn't have the first idea if farmer Giles was doing it right or wrong if you see my point.

If it is ok for other forum members to question and surely it is ok for me to do so?


And thank you for filling in me Flipflopman, much appreciated.

Phil

[Dan4th]

Good!

I'm happy you see the weight that Flipflopman
brings to the discussion.

Not to say he needs to go on a diet or anything.....

D.